Putting the 'U' in Behaviour: The Art of the Behaviour Lifestyle with Shouberte Abreu (Part II)

ABA on Tap is proud to spend some time with Shouberte Abreu (Part 2 of 2):

Grab a seat and pour yourself a cold one! In this episode of ABA on Tap, hosts Mike Rubio and Dan Lowery are joined by Shouberte Abreu, a powerhouse in clinical ABA and Founder of Behaviour Lifestyle. In addition, the crew is pleasantly surprised by a bonus guest, Dr. Scott O'Donnell. 

Shouberte takes us beyond the laboratory, sharing her journey from navigating tough supervision to becoming a leading mentor, author, and Infant Toddler Developmental Specialist. We are tackling the real-world applications of ABA, focusing on compassionate care, family training, and how to teach "the art of you" to our learners.

In this "pour," we’re serving up:

• The Path from RBT to BCBA: Real talk on field challenges, the importance of supportive supervision, and navigating the independent field work route.
• Family Guidance & Training: How to educate and support parents to implement effective strategies in the home.
• Compassionate Care: Blending clinical rigor with empathy to create meaningful, individualized programming.

Whether you are a new RBT looking for mentorship or a BCBA refining your clinical approach, this episode is filled with practical insights to help you grow.

Tune in, drink up, and always analyze responsibly!

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to ABA on tap. A Mike Rebio with Dan Lowry. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

All right, and welcome back to yet another installment of ABA on tap. I am your ever-grateful co-host, Mike Rubio, and this is part two with Schaubert's Abreu. I hope I said that correctly. Or as we endearingly called her, Shubi. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_04 0:47

So when you were saying, like a year, year and a half in that you wanted to do your own thing. It wasn't necessarily start your own company for ABA practice. It was you wanted to figure out how you could help support RBTs and future BCBAs. That's something that speaks to me a lot because I've been the trainer at the company I met Mike at. I was the trainer there for probably 10 years. Then the company that I brought Mike to, you know, I created like we were another guy and myself, we basically ran that company, which was awesome because we had complete creative freedom, but it's also kind of like, well, now I'm I'm responsible for the outcomes here. I can't really blame it on everyone and or anyone else. And I think we had really, really good outcomes. But Mike brought up a point that I think is so valuable is that you know, once once you have some certifying agency or licensing agency, then people train to that, you know, like with state testing and in schools. Once a state test is established and that's how school funding is given, then teachers are gonna have curriculum to train to that test. And that once the BACB came out with the RBT exam, then everything was kind of training to that test. And our trainings were kind of built around having to fulfill the first at the first time, first edition tasks, because now I think it's the second one. But a lot of it, you know, it was a 40-week training, and I thought that's why I left my first company because it went from me training, which I've people liked. I don't want that sounds cocky, but people liked the fact that there was a trainer there delivering it versus just to online, and then my company that we had, I fought tooth and nail to keep training in person. But like Mike said, what happens is that like these trainings are you know about differential reinforcement and fading reinforcement schedules and all these definitions, which while relevant, in in my experience, and I'm also curious about yours, and and I know Dr. Scott, you from even a slightly more of a clinical side, I'd be interested to get your perspective. What I found is like, can you interact with a kid? That's like the number one thing. Can if I just put you with a kid, can you interact with that kid? And if that kid throws a tantrum, can you not freeze up? Because that's what's gonna happen. You could know all the different reinforcement schedules and you can know all of these things, but when that kid throws a tantrum and that parent's there looking at you, and you freeze up, or you can't engage and interact with that kid, that parent's gonna call me and be like, so-and-so doesn't know how to interact with my kid, I want a new therapist. And they could pass the RBT exam, great, they could know all the reinforcement schedules and things like that. But I found that there was a big disconnect between what was being taught to certification and really what was actually needed in the field, at least initially, and maybe because of that, it led to a little bit more sterile, clinicalized feel of ABA practice. You mentioned you come from a child development background, so does Mike. Those are two words we try not to say on this podcast because if we bring those up, Mike will talk for like eight hours on child development. But I said it. So I don't know what what is y'all's thoughts on kind of what I said that discrepancy between what's trained and what's the expectation of training versus what might actually be needed in the field.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

I don't know if Dr. Scott wants to tackle that one for us first.

SPEAKER_05 4:03

You could, I mean, I could I could always talk on it, but I think both of you all should.

SPEAKER_04 4:07

And you develop the training, Zobi. So maybe you could talk on it first and then Dr. Scott and Mike or whoever else.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Okay, well, I feel like um the discrepancy with what we're seeing when it comes to how we're being trained, and especially when we are working for an ABA company already, what they do and what they have said is we are going to train you to become an analyst. And when and it's for free. So if you stay within the company, it is for free. If you leave the company, you have to, I guess, provide for yourself to find a different um analyst who's willing to help and everything. I feel like most people, they of course, when they are in a BT or going for RBT and their student analyst, they want to stay for the company for sure. What I've seen going happening is at times the analyst is completing helping that student analyst complete their hours, whether it's restricted, unrestricted, they are doing that. And I tell and I tell student analysts all the time, please make sure you have more than one, not just one analyst, because that one analyst can leave or something happens and they are they're like, you know what, those don't even count. I I've heard stories where you work for the company, it counts, you don't, then I'm not signing off of on anything that you've already done. This is so outrageous. The things I've heard happening. So this is why a lot of them have to look for somebody else, or they still have to pay for for to have just that second or third person to have an eye out and everything. Now, the thing is, what I noticed as the discrepancy is the BCB, the BACB, I need feel like I need to need to uphold accountability for things like this. And I will mention what they are. The BACB says that RBTs slash an analyst, they're the ones who need to make sure that they're held accountable for their hours for them to be done, for you to know and to know to know to go to an analyst and say, Hey, you need to sign this for me. Hey, I need this, I need to get done. I think this is outrageous. I think it doesn't make any sense. I it never made sense to me at all. I tell people who come to me that you need to hold me accountable. I'm not holding you accountable only, it is both parties and stuff. Actually, I feel like I should be held accountable number one first. The reason why, when you see a doctor is teaching a student doctor, okay, so they call them the attendant, right? I think that's how they call the doctor, right? So that doctor is the one held responsible, asking those questions, hard questions, and asking them to make those decisions, putting them on the line, and then supervising as well. Do you see that? I don't know. I've never seen a student doctor next to the doctor looking at the doctor and be like, so yeah, what do I do here? What is next? Whatever. You always see it's the doctor who's like, so what would you do in this situation? Or you see this in when you watch a video, documentary, or movies. If this is really how it is portrayed, you see doctors are the ones saying, asking, so how would you do this? What do you think of that or this? Why is it that the RBT slash student analyst has to be the one to remember who barely knows what's on the task list, what is uh written, they don't even know much. They probably have only taken two to three classes that they should be the one to tell me, hey, by the way, can you please teach me this? You have not taught me that. Or by the way, can you please sign this? You haven't. Or by the way, I should be doing the research as an analyst, knowing, okay, this is what I need to sign for them. This is what the document looks now. This is what I did last week, and I need to teach this week. Not me chasing down the the my supervisorslash mentor. That, hey, can you please teach me about all the differential reinforcements, about all the bad cage? What no? I think all jobs, companies, the way me I'm doing my business, the way we are doing it, we have something that we follow. All of those ones who are supervisors who recorded their name, registered their name, their name in the BACB, they need to be the one to be like, hey, meet with me next week. We're keeping this going for this amount of time, and that's what I'm teaching you next. And this is what I'm signing. Hey, did you have me sign this document for last week? Where you're tracking, you're helping men, helping them doing this. I have seen where the student is the one pulling, trying to find what tracking system the track the analyst doesn't even know and stuff. Do I know myself? Everything? No, but it is my responsibility to go the quabble board or go whatever, try to or collaborate with an analyst. Hey, what are you using and stuff? Let me kind of borrow that or let me use it too for my tech. It is not the tech's responsibility. This is why we are failing so many of them, and they are sitting for the exam five, six, seven times. They can't pass. You've seen a number of the the a number of rising ones of the failing ones are rising, and the ones passing has gotten lower and lower because everybody's still doing it the way they saw they had the super supervisor teach that. So, like, for example, if I know I didn't have the best supervisor, why should I keep that same route to teach somebody else? I need to upscale my thing. And and this is where I see the discrepancy is where where the the students they go and pay the companies to help them, they're doing a much better job than the ones they're working for that they say is free to teach them. That is what I'm seeing because they're the ones doing more of the research. I don't know if it's because the analysts are so busy, they're occupied, they're tired, they are burned out from already seeing clients or whatever, and they're like, oh my gosh, I gotta teach this, I gotta do that, I got, and it's I don't know if this is what's happening. This is why, if there are some analysts you have, you know, hired to, and they are part of the program, program development for the BACB and everything for students. They, if it's 25 billion hours for everybody, then make it 20 for them. That way they can focus with that student and provide a lot of their help and that energy to help. And I think the BACB needs to change that and hold both accountable, not just the RBT.

SPEAKER_04 11:29

That makes sense, Dr. Scott. Anything you wanted to add on that or a question as well? You just have to do it with the same energy that Shoby just did and the same amount of passion.

SPEAKER_05 11:40

What was the question?

unknown 11:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:44

I think I think we were talking about the difference between taking things out of like, you know, out of the classroom, you know, and that what that looks like differently, you know, in practice. And I guess being in both places because I I teach too. So, you know, I'm a professor at Temple, and I teach undergrads and I teach graduates and I teach behavior science classes, you know, for for them to get, you know, this is a verified course sequence so they can get their their BCBA cert, but I don't teach to for them to be BCBAs, I teach the science of behavior. And what they do with it is completely different. And I really have to teach that way too, because especially an undergraduate, because you don't know if that person is going to be a BCBA. I have speech therapists and and such, you know, that uh that are in my class and people with different majors. So, you know, I'm I'm teaching this this this science that they can use in a lot of different places, not just you know, working with kids with autism. And I think that's what the the BACV is mostly focused on trying, you know, to do right now. They're trying to certify certificates, you know, people to work with kids with autism. And I can understand that's where the money is. It's just that's just not what I was all about. But I do see you know, it's funny, like, because my my clinical practice is in mental health, so but I still will have clients with autism, you know, and I use very similar interventions, you know, token reinforcement and and I parent train parents to use the token reinforcement and such like that. Wait, Mike, wait a second. Hold on. Who said you could go? Dan, did you see Mike he's not allowed to just get up and leave like that? I'm in the middle. How is he gonna know what happens until he doesn't listen to the episodes?

SPEAKER_04 13:30

I now we talk about the Eagles winning the Super Bowl.

SPEAKER_05 13:33

Oh, yeah, okay, now we can talk about. You know, it's funny when he said, Oh, if there's anything you want to take out, but then I asked you, I asked you guys about that time. You asked me, like, oh, or Mike asked me, what would you do to help the Cowboys win a Super Bowl? And then I went on for like five minutes of what I would do, and I was like, oh, maybe I should ask them to take that out because I really don't want I really don't want the Cowboys to win a Super Bowl. Oh shoe be Mike is a a big Cowboys fan, and I'm a big Eagles fan. And the Eagles and the Cowboys, they don't get along, they are not, they are opposing forces. It's kind of like if you have a magnet and then north and south, and you're trying to put them together in a distance, and they like repel, you know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_06 14:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:17

So let me ask you, I want to kind of go back, so it should be what you were saying. So you did that, then you wanted to support people with their training and and kind of getting to their next step. And it's funny, Mike has a great statement that I like that practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes habits. So it makes me think of what you were talking about, how we just practice one way of training people, and then the next person does the same thing and the same thing and the same thing, even though it's not necessarily better. So then you created your website, behavior lifestyles, right? Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Behaviorlifestyle.com.

SPEAKER_04 14:50

Yep, yep. So I wanted to pass it to you to talk a little bit about that and then maybe get into SEBA. If that's good for you, did you have anything before I move to your website? So talk about kind of I uh you gave us the background about how you created it with Suzanne, but talk about your website and yeah, maybe how that also integrated or got you into SEBA, but first your website.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah, well, yeah, it's it's the well with the website. It this is why I actually went along and I said, okay, let's let's do something different. I don't really even want to have like a company unless if I have a company, I feel like I have a vision in the way it would be different because I think how I would do it is hire an analyst, and this analyst can focus on program development. They can still still work with children as well and provide services and and and still build the 155, but I would not tell them to bill a 25 billable hours. I think I would have them bill a 20, and then they can use that other five for the rest of the week just to focus on things like that. And so I I feel like um with when I with the way I did build and that that company, and it came to my mind, I was like, you know what, it's just so I want to do something different. And I wanted to get a lot of traffic of people when I post. This is how different we are, this is how you're going to learn, this is the new thing you're going to get, and stuff like that. Some people are still like, you know what, you know what? Hey, I'm getting this for free in my company, and I'll I'll stay within my company. And they don't realize that at times going out outside or having more than two to three analysts actually helps. You don't want to stick with only having one. I don't recommend it at all. You need to have a backup plan and have more than one, at least two, and so even three, if this is possible. Now, this is how Suzanne was came into the picture. Uh, where because I'm on LinkedIn and I do see people and everything, somebody gave me Suzanne. Somebody was like, you know what, this person's a consultant, and this person can help you with your website and help you along the way. And this is how I contacted her. And I said, Hey, someone told me to contact you. And I gave that person, I gave her the person's name at the time. It's it's been a while. And Suzanne was like, Wow, this is amazing! And she helped me along the way with building everything, having like a pretty much like a task analysis breakdown of the steps and everything of what you really need, uh, the components to build this and get it going, the brand and sticking to it. She even actually created something for me where when I post a certain type of way, like, say I want to post something on LinkedIn, she reformatted how the flyer should look like for this, for how it should look like for if I get on Instagram, because it's not one size fit all and everything with them. It they have different dimensions and everything. She did all of that for me. And this is how you know we kept in touch, and now she's also with, you know, on you know, ABA on tap. And this is how, you know, she was like, Hey, I know Schubert's part of SIBA. She's in Siba with other people, and she was like, Hey, how about you come and speak with something like this with based on what you're doing? And actually, Suzanne did register with SIBA in the beginning a little bit, and I believe she's still part of it, like as in, she'll show up more for the meetings. She's not an officer, but she'll show up for the meetings, she'll recruit for us, she will like, repost, share. And that's I like the type of engagement and that we still keep that connection going. Although she is not helping in terms of building brand or helping me to continue to grow a behavioral lifestyle, but she's helping me as a person to continue to grow by still, you know, with the engagement, still coming and being part of SIBA, coming into the meetings, providing her input and all of that.

SPEAKER_04 19:10

Awesome. So, what was you mentioned? How she got involved and that you need a little help with the website. And you mentioned that you had the desire to have the eagle over the book. What was your your vision with behavior lifestyle? Like what the website, the platform, was it basically to help that the training piece? Is that kind of your vision? If you wanted to get your name out there so you could help people pass the exam, is that kind of where it came from?

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Yes, to help people and make sure that it's not even for, it's not, we don't even, we don't even okay, we focus on two things, but we focus on one more than the other. So we focus on making sure that the person can get though those hours, the and the student analyst, they're getting those hours extra help that hey, I feel like I have reached 1300 hours and I need more. Or I feel like I have reached my unrestricted, this is where I'm at, but I need more of that. And a lot of the times people do not understand. And I've told them it with within my site, now it's not written on the site, but I've told them when they meet with me, I say, I say 5% is the bare minimum. It doesn't mean you have to stick there and stay there. You can actually reach more than the 5% that they are requiring. It can be six, it can be seven, it can be 10. So I tell that the more you learn and you feel like there's still something missing, and you've already reached that 5%, you can continue. You can push yourself. And so if people also, besides students, if I told, I think I wrote it too, an analyst who also feel like you're still missing something. Yes, I'm an analyst, I pass, but I'm still missing like that oomph. I'm still missing that something for me to be better as an analyst. You come to a hub. Like that hub is more like, okay, we can discuss, we can vent, or we can discuss about this and how we can come up with like um a like a what's the word I'm looking for? Like a conclusion, like realization, like something, a finalization of the final piece of this is what I need, what I want to talk about. Then you can come to behavior lifestyle for it. So it's not just for students. Yes, do we have more students come? Yes. Do we have analysts come at all to us? No. But we do want analysts to also come and say, hey, I feel like I need more training. I just finished, I passed, I'm an analyst, and I feel like I need to know what do I really even put as caregiver goal training for that client? Yeah. And we can come and learn about it. And how to do it is we also have a book. It's called an ABA parent guidebook. And I tell people you can buy it. And Makoto Shibutani is the writer, the the author of that book. The ABA parent guidebook. And that book, you can uh go into it, get some of those you know, ideas, so you can have goals. Sometimes the goals I see they write for the parents have nothing to do with what I really want to see the parent learn in terms of what their kid actually needs. Like, for example, if I am working with an 18-year-old, and that 18-year-old, it seems like they need more of that act therapy. They really like to. I actually really do have an 18-year-old. Really, true story. And they project a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 22:51

But she's not 18. He's got a what a 20-year-old and a 16-year-old. Go ahead. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Well, you you can still do it with a 16, they're very close. What they start, they some of some of them on the spectrum, they tend to be lonely. They turn tend to be alone. Act therapy can really be a great source where at times they are projecting negative self-thoughts and negative all of these things. Like I have him say to him to people, I am stupid. I don't think people think I am smart. I don't think I can do this. I think it's outside. And we can use positive self-reframing for that. And we use uh, you know, worksheets, app worksheets, all of that to help with something like this, diffusion and all of that, right? So I use a sheet for him and everything. What do you think should be a goal for the parent? I tell the like an analyst, if I were to teach that, I would say a goal for the parent has nothing to do with, oh, caregiver will learn how to know what you know, his behavior, uh a behavior, or and when he doesn't even engage in behaviors, or you know, it would be something like caregivers will learn how to help client by providing positive self-reframing or positive words of affirmations when he engages in those statements. That is the goal that this caregiver needs to help this client. It has nothing to do with the parent will learn about antecedent strategies, about the consequence of this. No, or it or knowing the different variety of level of prompts. No, this goal is what the caregiver would need for this typical client. So, this is what I I want analysts to to get and and be like, I can still learn. It doesn't mean like I pass and you can't still go to behavioral lifestyle, study notes, ABA or other companies out there. You can still grow yourself while you're getting those CEUs and still learn. Absolutely and come. And yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:56

That's why we love this podcast because we're always learning. Every time we bring people on, we always learn. And I feel like sometimes the field can get a little stagnant. So that behavioral lifestyles then brought you, connected you with uh Dr. Scott, and you all got, you know. So now if it's good time for you to talk about the uh Society for Exceptional Behavior Analysts, is that I said that right.

SPEAKER_05 25:18

Expansion, expansion for the expansion.

SPEAKER_04 25:20

Why did I say exceptional? Behavioral it's good, it's gonna be an exceptional yeah, it's gonna be an exceptional expansion. The Society for the Expansion of Behavior Analysis, yes. So, yeah, let's go ahead, Scott.

SPEAKER_05 25:31

I I have an assessment for you. I came up with an assessment to determine whether you belong in it.

SPEAKER_04 25:36

All right, so now let's open the door to the SEBA talk. The floor is y'all.

SPEAKER_05 25:41

All right, and and I'm fine, you you call it a SEBA, and you we usually call a SIBA, and I'm like wondering if this is gonna be like a West Coast, East Coast thing, like where in the West Coast you call a Seba, and the East Coast you call a SIBA, right? So I don't want to do anything about it. Please continue to call it that, and then like maybe it's a way we know where people I like it where everybody's from. But okay, so see the assessment is it's just four questions, and then it's on a scale of one to five what your answers would be, and one would be complete being completely disagree, two is somewhat disagree, three would be neutral, four would be somewhat agree, and five is completely agree.

SPEAKER_04 26:20

Oh, rarely do we get put on the spot on our own podcast, Mike. All right. Man, first we got a surprise guest, then we got a guest we didn't study for.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

That's what you get with Dr. Scott. That's what you get with Dr. Scott. Go ahead, Dr. Scott.

SPEAKER_05 26:33

Just just remember, five is completely agree, and that should be all your answers here. They shouldn't even be thinking any other numbers. I love it. I guess direct instruction. So uh question question question one is apply behavior analysis is the science of behavior not just the science of autism. Would you agree with that? Yes, yes. That'd be a five. Completely agree with that? Okay. All right. Behavior analysts should be working with many different populations in many different settings and with many different behaviors.

SPEAKER_04 27:04

So when you're saying behavior analysts, are you saying the field, or are you saying each individual behavior analyst should work with many different certainly the field? Okay, yeah, certainly the field. Say five. Oh, okay. So we're audio podcast, so we gotta say five, five, five. Nobody can see you putting up your hand.

SPEAKER_06 27:21

Five.

SPEAKER_05 27:22

I would I would like more options when it comes to careers instead of just autism. Five. Five. Yeah. Okay, and the last one behavior analysis is a science that can change the world. That's a six.

SPEAKER_06 27:37

Six.

unknown 27:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:40

So you guys scored 20 collectively. If you scored 13 or higher, it means you should join SIBA. There it is.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

It's official. It's official.

SPEAKER_05 27:50

We're gonna have to do it now. This is great. I love it. I believe that puts you guys in the critical range, so it's critical that you joined SIBA.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

I like this assessment. Um I uh this is this was good.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

This was good.

SPEAKER_05 28:04

I do have I do have some questions for you. I came up with some like general Seabo questions. I I figure it would be fun to to ask everybody. Yeah, absolutely, bro. So I would I I yeah, I'd like to hear everybody say so. If you had your choice of working in any setting with any population and on any behaviors, what would you choose?

SPEAKER_03 28:25

I I I mean, I'm trying to do this. I I want to be in a pediatrician's office. I want to be in some sort of pediatric practice where any one of those pediatricians in the practice could be like, Oh, okay, I hear you. Here's our 16-minute consultation. I looked at this, this, and this on my end, and then go see Mr. Rubio down there on the hall, down the hall on your way out about the uh bed wedding issue or whatever it is. I I would want to be in a pediatric setting for for all kids, not just kids with autism, obviously, but a lot of a lot of early pediatric issues that come up as as you guys may have heard that you know take parents to the pediatrician, but those particular professionals aren't equipped to to deal with those behaviors. So cool.

SPEAKER_05 29:15

Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_04 29:18

Man, I've gone through like four different ones in my head, just I would think either corrections working on helping people find societally acceptable ways to interact with society that don't get them in involved with corrections, or like some sort of addiction piece for like like gamblers or people that are addicted to drugs yet impulse disorder, or something with athletics to give people like a step up to figure out how we can like you've talked a little bit about on your side, Dr. Scott, to use behavior analysis to give people a step up on their competition. One of those three. How about you, Shubi?

SPEAKER_00 30:04

I see myself more in the pediatrics department because I think I I've worked in the pediatrics department. I would, I feel like I would be, I would, I think I would thrive in a in an environment like this. I also I don't know if people know, I do have sickle cell disease. And so working with a population with somebody that has sickle cell disease, which is some form of an anemia, I would really be happy to help with knowing how to manage pain. And besides that, I love forensics. I I I don't know, I'm intrigued by it. I want to learn more. And I think it would be substance abuse use or abuse or something. That would be what I would go for.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

So I I need to add something now, since they got more than one. It's only fair that I add one. And I don't know that I would want to spend all my time in this, but I think I think family law needs our help.

SPEAKER_06 31:05

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:06

I think family law needs behavior analysts in terms of like things like supervised visitation, parent uh support or parent training that they do, the court-ordered parent training. I think those those places could really use our help.

SPEAKER_06 31:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:21

You know where that really needs help? And I work with a lot of a lot of people in that in that situation because like just because you know, I'm a therapist and I work with kids, and a lot of times, like the the you know, the the co-parenting and the divorce and the breakups is so hard in the kids. And and the parents, it's so hard on the parents too, and they struggle to do the co-parenting, really struggle, because now here's your ex and you're you know, and there's all this spitefulness between you two, and and it affects the kid, and and you know, and then I I hear I hear it from both sides sometimes, and it's just tough, and they need some help in navigating it. And like I feel bad because I realize that I'm spending an hour a week with the kid, but like mom could get an hour, dad could get an hour. You know, everybody could really use it, especially in a situation like that.

SPEAKER_04 32:09

Well, the good thing is Mike and his ex-wife are both BCBAs, so there was no spitefulness, it was completely Yeah, no, it was it was it was great.

SPEAKER_03 32:16

No, it was not and the idea that that you go with co-parenting as as the go-to because it seems to be the the best for the kids. And then I think the point, the greater point you're making there, Dr. Scott, is that it doesn't work out that way a lot of the time. So this notion that you parallel parent, yes, the idea that that as much as it it stinks for your kids, you kind of have to separate sometimes uh in order to have peaceful camps on either side, knowing that you know a lot of times that that any any sort of con there's just so much contention and it's two adults in a very heated situation with these little people in the middle. But yeah, I think family law can can use our help tremendously in terms of helping parents, co-parent, or parallel parent, setting up uh it's I mean, it's all about schedules, right? So we're perfect at that. Schedules for access and then things like supervised visitation. From what I understand, in most states, that's it's a very important role, and then the certification for it leaves a lot wanting. So you can become one of those people, do like an eight-hour training course here in California for a few bucks, and then all of a sudden you're thrown into these situations like you were describing, Dr. Scott, that are that are highly contentious, very tense, very volatile, and you're managing adults' behavior as well as kids' behavior, and then there's a developmental piece that needs to come in there in terms of understanding, you know, all the all the detriments and and things that can get created for kids here. But anyway, I too long of an answer though. I apologize. You had something else going, Dr. Scott. So those would be our ideal settings we'd want to work in outside of uh the autism thing.

SPEAKER_05 33:52

That's you know, I I thought maybe someone would include autism. I wasn't sure, but but that's really interesting. And we all met like that through autism because we've all had that experience. It's it's hard to not have that experience when you're in this field. It's it's like always something that like even when you're out of it, it's almost like you're in it a little bit. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yep, yeah. And it and it's it's so funny. I really felt like that population chose me. Like I did not choose that population. Like I was would did not get into ABA, you know, like knowing anything about autism or anything like that. You know, at the time that I got into ABA, you know, this is before the insurance mandates and everything. Yeah, you know, I got in it because of the science. But I guess for me, I I'd really like to work with you know professional athletes, really high performers, you know, the best in the best. I don't have to be necessarily an athlete, but you know, like you know, someone who's like competing at the top at the highest level and one thing or another, I think that's like interesting. And I just I also I do am fortunate I get to work in situations that I really like working in. Like I get to work in mental health and help just generally help people with things. And sometimes like, yeah, we could done a mental health target, and there's you know, I want to get this business going, and I help them with that too. And you know, and that sure helps their mental health when they get a business going, and you know, and it's like I get to work in some of these areas that I I have wanted to work in, you know, just not not so consistently, but like when I see the opportunity, I'm like, yeah, let me do, let me use some behavior science to help you.

SPEAKER_04 35:25

You know, it'd be an interesting one, Dr. Scott. And with that, with the high performers, it makes me think about it because before I got into this field, you know, it was always a server, but I went through a a phase where I was a professional poker player, I guess you could say. And I still like I'm still into that scene. I still watch a lot of poker play, sometimes not as much as I used to, but that would be a really interesting one to explore from a behavior analytic perspective because outside of the individual hand variants, it literally is just behavior analysis of another person. And then the uh you know, the payout could be theoretically pretty high because you know, if you're really successful, you can do pretty well. So that would be an interesting one.

SPEAKER_05 36:03

I was working with poker I was working with a poker player, so I was uh, you know, looking into it, and you know, this he wasn't like it's something he did because you didn't have a whole lot of choices with the with a drug addiction, you know, and that was something that I wasn't even working with him for the drug addiction, you know, I wasn't his therapist for that. It was just helping him with a lot of other things. But some of the things we were looking at, we were definitely talking a lot about like decision making and things like that. Burnout was another topic that came up a lot because like you know, he was on the you know, trying to play a lot, you know, we were talking about like all right, getting into a lot and and like how much he should, you know, be betting for and looking at his his money role and how how things are going money-wise, and you know, how about success in these tournaments? All right, if you're not having a lot of success, are you just jumping on another table? Because you haven't been playing too well right now. So maybe you shouldn't jump on to jump jump into another cash game right now. You know, just because you've lost a couple games in the row doesn't mean you should spend more money. You know what I mean? And like that that decision making is like a big part of it, you know, and and like you you have to have that sales decision making. When you when you don't have that salon decision making, you know, you have money on the line. You gotta know that you're not making any salent decisions and either take a break or do something about it. I think that's an important part of it. But but certainly, like it certainly, like how you're reacting to other people. I also like looking at like I thought it was really interesting. Like, you know, I play poker too. I thought I I wouldn't look at my cards until like the very end, right before I had to look at my cards. That's when I look at it. So no one would get a read-off of me. Yep, but how long people like if you're looking at online poker and you don't really know someone might be distracted or something, but how long people take on their turn, you know, and is there consistency there? And like, are they doing something? Are they taking a while? Because if they're taking a while, then maybe they're considering something. And if they're considering something, they might have something in their hand, or at least something that plays that relates to what is going on, or or maybe they just got distracted tie in their shoe and it took them a few seconds to you know to hit the button on online poker, you know. So yeah, a lot goes a lot goes into it, but I've been I've been looking into behavior analysis of poker. There's definitely like play ways we can help people there.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Awesome. In in terms of industry, uh the autism intervention is the most prominent, but what I mean there are people doing a whole lot of other things with with ABA. We just don't tend to hear enough about it. Maybe the funding sources aren't as accessible. What what do you guys think about that in general?

SPEAKER_05 38:41

Well, there's a part there's a part of it where there's the what the the industry advantage, you don't want to give a competitive advantage, you know, to others. So yeah, there's behavior analysts working here and there. And sometimes I could tell with a professional sports team when there's behavior analysts working with them, I could see you know some of the things they're doing. And I I could tell, and it's like, all right, well, it's are you gonna be reading about that in Java? And I would say, no, you're not. Like you're not in fact, that person is not producing any, you know, research. So you don't get to read about it, and you know, they're just helping their client. There's plenty of ways I help my clients that you guys aren't going to find out about it because I just can't talk about it, you know, for privacy reasons. So so there's that part of it that you have these professionals who are doing what we would say would be called service delivery, and they wouldn't be sharing it with everybody else, you know, with with some of these with some of these professional sports teams, but you can kind of tell. Yeah, you know, you can kind of tell there's behavior answer there.

SPEAKER_03 39:38

Even even medically, though, I feel like our utility has been very uh sort of narrowed down to the to the autism diagnosis. And I know that one of the arguments for that here in California, or at least when I've looked into like the behavioral pediatrics thing, which is something I really want to do, and that's you know, it's gonna have to be out-of-pocket expense for parents initially, or it is in the in the models that exist. But a lot of the reasoning that people give here is well, you guys aren't licensed in California, but we're licensed elsewhere, and I still don't hear that medical utility expanding much. You guys know anything beyond autism intervention that people are doing medically? I mean, like there's I would imagine that like I mean the you know the diabetes front is pretty well developed, but I I feel like there's a good amount of room for us in there, especially with like uh more pediatric applications. I know the gerontology piece is in there, yeah. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 40:26

Yeah, that was uh didn't someone mention Shubi during one of our meetings, they were like, oh, this next big thing, and uh, you know, they were looking into it, it was like geriatric the Alzheimer's piece, geriatric yeah, geriatric population and stuff like that. That the that might be the next new thing. But another state got ADHD covered for behavior analysts too. Okay, but that's cool. You know, at this at the same time it's Virginia is covered substance abuse now. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah, substance abuse was another thing. Uh right on, that's pretty good. But at the same yeah, at the same time, it's it's kind of like, all right, well, that's good, but does that mean if you're a BCBA, you could just work in substance abuse? And it's like, all right, that's where we get that's where things might get really dangerous. Right. Because yeah, we do have the certification, and the certification is very like autism, you know, centered. And you know, my big thing is like I didn't want to just work with kids with autism just so I could not work with kids with autism. I felt like that was ethically questionable if I did that, you know what I mean? So, but that's but that's how you get your hours mostly. And if you're trying to get your hours other ways, it's hard, you know, you have a hard time doing it. And then in these other settings, it's like, is that BCDA cert the right cert? You know what I mean? Like, is that the right would that be the right cert for me for doing acceptance and commitment therapy? And I feel like no, right? Is it is that a behavior analytic intervention? Can you do it better if you're a behavior analyst? Yes. Like you want to have a behavior analyst who does acceptance commitment therapy, but is that the right certification for someone who does that? No, the right certification would be like licensed practice and counselor or licensed psychologist or something like that, you know. So then then we got a problem with where we have this intervention coming from one field, right, that doesn't have the certification for, but is useful in another field, you know. So you can see some of the reasons why we need uh SIBA right now. We we want to expand. We all talked about different things that we wanted to do in the science, and and like it makes sense. I could see Mike having the office down the hall from the pediatrician, you know, and the pediatrician like, all right, just you know, just a couple doors down, you know, and and then like and it works like that, like kind of like in that model. I could see that happening, and and I think that would be like really helpful, right? It would make a whole lot of sense. But getting there, like we're we're not there yet. We yeah, we certainly have to, you know, we have to expand. And it's it's actually very few of us that work in other areas, it's is something like 80 somewhere in the 80 percent. Actually, I I have it written down. It is what eighty two point six four percent of BCBAs work in autism, you know, so that leaves just a small percentage, 17% that work outside of autism. You know, and and that major that minority needs a voice, it needs a voice that can fight for and something that can push policy for it. Yeah, because it's not gonna get done by the majority. The majority the majority is already getting paid. You know, we're talking about areas that that that like that someone needs to stand up or a group needs to stand up and say, hey, we can help here too, we can make a difference here too. Let's make that happen. Let's make it so we can make a difference.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

Even just making something more visible, whatever the other, you know, 17 and change percent is that are doing something different, who are those people? What are they doing? I think that would that would change the whole terrain because now to your point, Dr. Scott, somebody comes out of You know, undergrad or whatever, and they they can see somebody applying something in a way that's new, or right now you come out, you hear ABA, you hear autism intervention, that pretty much swallows up the whole conversation for the most part, you know. So I think you're absolutely right. Even just putting somebody else out there that's like, hey, they do this with behavior analysis, it's not uh necessarily animal science in some lab, it's not just autism intervention, but it's all these other things, you know. So that whether it was uh sports performance or on on pro sports teams or some other avenue that that would make it a viable livelihood for somebody. But yeah, I mean 17% isn't that's that's not nearly visible enough, I would contend.

SPEAKER_05 44:40

And the the funny part is right now, I don't even feel like if someone wanted to go into those areas, ideally you'd want to support them with someone who has a lot of mentoring and experience in that area, and you can't even provide that right now. I feel like the the best way for me to support my students who want to do ABAS out of autism is to like teach them how to be a pioneer and to like be an entrepreneur and make a business for themselves and find out how to market themselves and sell this idea instead of like working on the the procedures that they would need, you know, in that field. Like I feel like you know, making them into that person that can make something of it, you know, that could that could deliver that and you know, and and have a website and have a very niche or specialty business or something like that. That's where the value is, which is it's just kind of bothersome, you know, because like I feel like that's not what we should be teaching them. I really wish like these avenues were already in place and and like analysts would have a choice. It's kind of like we gotta rent we got away from the direction we were going, and we got so hyper-focused on autism that we forgot like our original mission, like what we were supposed to do. There were supposed to be behavior analysts everywhere, it was supposed to be a behavioral revolution. What happened to our revolution? Is our revolution died? We lost, you know, is that what happened? Like, the did the other side win, you know? But there was supposed to be we were supposed to have behavior analysts everywhere, we were supposed to save the world, and and it's like almost like we got distracted, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 46:11

Yeah, no, it makes sense. It's like you know, you being a PhC if you know therapists could only work with addiction, like that's the only thing that they did, nothing else. That would definitely be very pigeonholing for sure.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

Yeah. I mean, you have even from you have other boards being created, but they're still focusing on that autism whenever conferences are occurring. Yeah, it's more on okay, we have a speaker and it's still autism gear-rooted. Like it's you're like, okay. Um I want to hear about an OBM speaker in a conference when I'm paying all the this money. I want to hear someone say, you know, I work, you know, as I'm a sex analyst, and this is what I do, and we want more of you. We we want to see someone speak about I work in the pediatric center, that's what I'm doing, and we want more of you. Let's, hey, they where there's a card, a table, we want to recruit and teach you right now. Join us. I want to see that in a conference when I when I go, but I'm not getting that a lot. If I go to Faba or the ABAI is trying, I feel like Quaba board came came on. It's still autism. I thought, you know, if you're doing a different board, do it a little different from what the BACB is doing, but it's still about autism. The IBAO, I think, is trying about, but you know, we want to people to give exams on the subspecialties. So now they are certified and they go to the BACB, but then they want that extra curriculum. We want universities to start teaching those. We want people to write books more geared towards those subspecialties, and we're giving them to universities. We are partnering with them, and that those universities can now teach that curriculum about the subspecialty a bit more. And then the student comes and takes an exam where they pass, they have that extra certification, and then they can teach it. And that's what SIBA, where SIBA comes, we want to do that, and so we want professors to come, we want those who already have that affiliation with universities to come, and where you are going to now, like a conference, we want to do the our first conference on anything you can talk about, but do not mention autism to cover any of that because we we're getting it elsewhere, so that's what we want. If if you are knowledgeable in that, you come and you provide that, and those people can get their CEUs and something else and broaden their knowledge.

SPEAKER_04 49:03

Imagine like rewriting the algorithm, basically. Yeah, kind of like the ABA algorithms all autism right now, and that's all it's getting fed.

SPEAKER_03 49:10

The way you just stated it, too. It's it's I think that's what it takes. It's what you're proposing. It's we're gonna have an ABA conference, and it's it's prohibited to talk about autism. You cannot talk about I think that's you have to force the issue. Even as if as as I've explored the behavioral pediatrics piece and talking to pediatricians and saying, Hey, I actually want to hit up your waiting room because a good 30% of those people are there for something behavioral. Their response is always back to, well, we already have somebody that screens for the developmental disabilities or the autism. I'm like, that's not what I'm talking about, man. I'm talking about the rest of the kids, whether or not they have autism. I'm talking about, you know, the bedwedding and the sibling rivalry and the picky eating and the hyperkinetic piece before it becomes ADHD. All those things that we could address in pediatrics, I feel, as people are waiting for that specialty referral through their insurance, because the pediatrician has said, well, give it another six months or give it another two months, and if it doesn't go away, come back and see me. And they're doing their best. I'm not being at all critical. They're they're literally saying, Hey, let's see how this differentiates. Well, during that time, we could be intervening, we could be helping differentiate uh that circumstance from a behavioral perspective, such that that medical professional can now arrive at something and say, Hey, I think this is what it is. You know what? Or it wasn't this, it was all behavioral. Good luck, mom and dad. Go you know, go on with your with uh your developmental progression and see what happens next. Uh, versus oh, you know what, this isn't just behavioral now. I've got something more physiologically or anatomically based as a pediatrician to look into, for example.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

I don't know if you if you notice when you go to a conference and stuff, when it's a different topic, like a sleep disorder or sleep issue, or it's something different, it's packed. So it's it's different, it is packed versus a depends on who it is.

SPEAKER_05 51:03

If it's me, it's a half empty room. No, come on, Doctor. That's not true. You can fit no, no, in its own behavior analysis, of course. I think you can fit us all in a big conference room pretty easily, I think. There's just not as many, not that many people doing it, but you know, but yeah.

unknown 51:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:20

If it's Hanley, if Hanley's talking, then oh yes, but I was I was thinking I was thinking after listening to Mike, maybe we should hook Mike up with Dr. Steve and Miran. And you would might even want to have him on his on your podcast. He's a MD that he advocates for and use a behavior analysis in in the medical industry a lot. And his his biggest argument that's really gotten me is like, yeah, we have we have like what we would treat this with, right? And then almost all the time you see behavioral treatments, and we're not referring. Like we should be every time that that is on there as part of the treatment, you know, that there's like behavioral treatments, okay. And anytime you would come into the doctor for say, oh, my kid's got you know ADHD, or I think my kid's got autism, or I think my kids have this, or I think my kid has that. Anytime you would go into the doctor, like the doctor it's his first line is not for the pharmaceutical, it's the first line of treatment is always gonna be behavioral, right? So, like, why why aren't we getting tons and tons of referrals from these doctors when that's in their like you know, direct directives of how to treat that? That makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 52:29

Plus, I think I I've heard that a lot of people are projecting the field of medicine is gonna change with AI, and it'll be less of doctors figuring out what medications people should be taking because AI will be way better at knowing being able to siphon through people's medical records and figuring out pairing what medication would be better. It'll be more bedside manner and getting people educated on how to take that medicine, which is both behaviorally based.

SPEAKER_06 52:53

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_03 52:54

Yeah, the the neuropsychopharmacology part of it is something we haven't explored either, like you know, kids on medications. That's because we can't fit that title in a well, so but the therapeutic effects as well as the side effects. Yeah, it is the therapeutic effects and the side effects both have behavioral components, they would both be managed behaviorally, right? So, how often do you have a parent say, hey, my right, when you went on the stimulant medication, my child was doing great, but they're chewing on their shirt. So we discontinued it. Well, wait a minute. You you they were doing well, but they were chewing on the shirt. We maybe we could have addressed that pretty easily.

SPEAKER_05 53:27

Yeah, you know what's really funny? That just happened. It just happened to me yesterday. It's so funny you say that, Mike, and it just happened to me yesterday. Actually, yeah, no, I guess technically it happened last week, but I had the client again. And just to let you know, the behavioral intervention was successful, and there are no new holes in his clothes this week. Okay, so he so just I'm just saying I'm just saying we got we got a great great treatment worked, and you know what it was just positive reinforcement. That's all it took. You know, we made it, we made a deal, you know. If he comes out of school and he's got no holes in his clothes, then he gets ice cream, right? And we all shook on it, and that was the deal, right? And then and that's what happened. And the funny thing is, co-parenting difficulty. Dad picked him up one day, didn't know. Kid had a fit, you know, of course, meltdown. Oh man, that's okay. Nobody was gonna get ice cream, you know. But like, you know, I've been working with mom to be like, all right, let's, you know, and when we talk to dad, let's not be mean and let's not be mean around the kid or anything like that. And let's, you know, we're not gonna argue around the kid, we're not gonna do that, you know. And she was able to say, well, you know, this is what we had set up, and you know, and then dad got him ice cream, so it still worked out, and there's no new holes in his clothes.

SPEAKER_03 54:48

And and and now you get to, yeah, and now that you know, seeing assuming that it was part of like a stimulant medication side effect, it's like, okay, now we can enjoy the therapeutic effects of that medication. The child can benefit from that, making themselves more accessible to their environment, and their shirts are okay. We're good, we're good. Everybody wins, right? I mean, it's pretty basic. Talk about you know, parsimony, like it's a pretty basic approach, but it's not part of the medical model currently. That's probably the bigger part of the question is how we infuse ourselves into that so that pediatricians, for example, do know that they can send, you know, they can hire somebody down the hall or they can send somebody to the next office over and and have families get that help with their kids. So well, I I warned you, Shubi, that the this time would fly. Here we are, nearing two hours. Sure, we can't go for another two.

SPEAKER_05 55:40

Who do you guys got next? Come on, we do.

SPEAKER_03 55:43

We're gonna be talking about sex next, actually. So we we have to have uh uh Nicholas Mayo.

SPEAKER_06 55:51

Oh, you got that? He's with us, he's with us, he's with SEAL.

SPEAKER_03 55:55

So he's uh do you guys uh does Rachel hang out with you guys? Rachel Benson, too? Or I think they work together. Well, that's another heavy hitter. We we'll we'll talk about her next time. Yeah, they the whole sex therapy thing and behavior analysis seems to have a good little uh niche, yeah. Like that's that's working out for sure.

SPEAKER_04 56:15

And yes, we could talk for another two hours, which means we'll have to have you both on again at some point. Yes. The answer is yes, just not right now.

SPEAKER_06 56:23

Yes, we were very well. We do, yes.

SPEAKER_03 56:27

Shubi, tell everybody out there once again where to find you, behavior with a you. Yeah, let people know out there as as we close up here where they can find you, where you want them to find you.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

Well, it it's funny I say forget about my my my small business. I want them to find me on LinkedIn, SIBA.

SPEAKER_06 56:47

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

You can go to Instagram, type in official siba board, and you'll find on us on Instagram. If you go to fake um, LinkedIn is the whole SIBA word. So you're gonna have to type Society for the expansion of behavior analysis. You'll see us pop up. You can also follow me, just my name, Shubert Abrew. You can follow me and and we can connect. If you're like, hey, I don't want to be part of SIBA, but at least I just want to learn, you can just connect with me, with Dr. Scott, anyone who's part of SIBA who who's a member. So we we have Gary Corone, you have Dr. Scott. If you go to any of us, you will still connect it. Well, we're still connecting the dot. Hey, somebody reached out, they wanted this information, and we still communicate. So it doesn't matter with Facebook. We are on Facebook. If you type in the whole, I think it's SIBA on Facebook. Let not just the Society for the Expansion. Give me one second, Major.

SPEAKER_05 57:50

Sure. And you could you could find me on ABA on tap, I'll be on every other episode.

SPEAKER_00 57:57

Yes, love it, love it. We are on Teams as well. So if you go, yes, if you go to Facebook, the whole name is Society for the Expansion of Behavior Analysis, and you'll find us there. And I'm also on Facebook, and we are on Teams. We are accepting people to go on Teams. We can if you just message us, we will send you the link direct link for Teams so you can join join SIBA and be a member on there too.

SPEAKER_04 58:27

Nice. It's really Safa, right?

SPEAKER_00 58:30

SIBA.

SPEAKER_04 58:32

Safa Society for the expansion and go's trouble down.

SPEAKER_05 58:40

I thought you were saying SEBA. I thought we were waiting. SEBA. Oh, Seba. That's that's what he's doing. Oh, okay. That was that was that's the West Coast. That's the West Coast dialect, right? Yeah. So you always know where you go to a conference, you always know if someone's from East Coast or West Coast, and a guy from the West Coast and a SIBA. West side.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

We do have an email too, and we have a website that's almost done. So people can even start our website on our website, sibaimpact.org. And we'll put that in our link.org. Um, you can check us out too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:20

Well, Shubi, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for inviting an additional guest. This has been a really, really good time. I'd like to offer a few closing points here so we can do our tagline. So, what I've got today is establish cooperation, not simply assent. Add a U to your behavior analysis. Try measuring your rapport, do it better with behavior analysis and always analyze responsibly. Cheers, guys.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

Thank you for having us. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_01 59:49

Yum yum.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

ABA on chat is recorded live and unfiltered. We're done for today. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. See you next time.