Parenting Styles

Beginning with one of the most foundational ingredients available for this brew, Mike and Dan lean on hearty handfuls of Diana Baumrind's nominal research on parenting styles from back in the 1960s. Fresh off a healthy pour on 'Parent Education,' it makes perfect sense for the behavioral brew to examine styles of parenting. Many new flavors and 'hints' of different aromas have surfaced over the years---including terms like 'collaborative parenting', or the seemingly harsher but likely misconstrued 'commando parenting.' At the end of the day, Mike and Dan make a case for the basic four styles--authoritarian, authoritative, permissive and negligent--as first outlined by Baumrind, then renovated by Macoby and Martin in the 1980s. Research on parenting styles is robust and reliable, and a very useful tool in effective parent education on how to best employ ABA procedures and strategies. Be aware, this is a very tall pour, much more than a pint. But it's classic, cold and very refreshing--ENJOY!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

Welcome to ABA on Tap, where our goal is to find the best recipe to brew the smoothest, coldest, and best tasting ABA around. I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio, and join us on our journey as we look back into the ingredients to form the best concoction of ABA on tap. In this podcast, we will talk about the history of the ABA brew, how much to consume to achieve the optimum buzz while not getting too drunk, and the recommended pairings to bring to the table. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_01: 0:54

All right. Welcome yet again to another installment of ABA on Tap. I am your co-host, Mike Rubio, along with my good friend... Daniel Lowry. Good to be back. Really good, coming off a very exciting interview episode with Jennifer Stevens. Jennifer, we know you're out there. Thanks again for your time, and thanks again for adding so much momentum quickly to ABA on Tap with a bunch of ideas. We've been messaging very actively, and we're really hoping to make more connections like that. Jennifer's already actively connecting us with two other of her colleagues who have some interesting things to say, so we'll be following up on that very soon.

SPEAKER_03: 1:32

Just to add into that, too, it's really, really... Awesome to understand that we're not in an echo chamber and we're not just talking to ourselves and there are other people out there that prescribe by the same methodologies and principles that we do. So again, Jennifer, thank you. It's been really awesome and invigorating to have you on our team and working collaboratively. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:54

I guess there's an element of replication and validation there, even though it wasn't intentional. So the idea that we're progressing the science, we're taking the empirical validated pieces and actually applying them in a non controlled setting. We like to say lab to living room, lab to learning environment, just variations of that. And I think that this connection with Jennifer and hopefully others soon and other connections amongst colleagues that happen out there are able to provide that level of validation. Hey, we do it this way and it worked. You try it out. Guess what? It worked. And we're all basing it on the same principles of empirically validated ABA, right? So the idea that positive reinforcement is effective if you can find the right reinforcer.

SPEAKER_03: 2:35

Absolutely. And if you haven't had a chance, please, after this episode, go back and check out the episode that we released previously with Jennifer Stevens.

SPEAKER_01: 2:44

All right. So today we're going to, again, take a step back. We're not going to present anything new per se, but we're going to spend some time on a topic that we have not ever dealt with directly, although we allude to it probably every time we talk. And this is the idea of parenting styles.

SPEAKER_03: 3:05

Really excited about this one because we touched base on it, got a little bit of feedback, so we wanted to actually expand on it based on some feedback. So it's really good when we can reach out into the community, get some feedback, and then expand on it.

SPEAKER_01: 3:17

Let me expand on that level of feedback quickly because I have to give a little shout out to our dear friend who we're going to I call him Pop Pop. Pop Pop was listening to our ABA and policing episode. And we alluded to Diana Bomrin's parenting styles model. And we didn't mention collaborative parenting, which is not part of the original model, but a very popular parenting style that gets talked about online and in different forums these days. And that's something that this particular young man is a fan of. So he called me right out on it and said, He was very disappointed that I said authoritative parenting was the place we want to stay more than anything, and he thinks it's collaborative parenting. So we'll talk a little bit about that. Quite honestly, I don't have expertise or extensive reading on it, but we're going to use trusty old Google and our laptops here to give us some information and then really create connections between these styles. So we're using Diana Bomrand and the original model, which I think was advanced by some people at Stanford and Eleanor McAbee in the 80s. They added an additional parenting style or cut the permissive style into two different styles for a total of four. And we're going to allude to that primarily because of the extensive research that has been done cross-culturally and something that has really stood the test of time, right? But we also want to include some more modern takes on parenting styles, so collaborative parenting being one of them. commando parenting being another one we'll spend some time on and we're picking those because they sort of they look at extremes things that can fit under authoritative or authoritarian parenting and then really want to drive home the point I made the suggestion or the supposition that authoritative parenting is where we want to spend most of our time and that is to really highlight that it's not going to be the only place we spend our time as parents there's a dance there's a fluctuation now if you find yourself a great deal of the time being an authoritarian, presumably there's going to be certain results or outcomes because of that, and that's why we want to sort of Again, in my humble opinion, spend most of our time in the authoritative camp and then explore some of the other camps as needed or as appropriate, given your culture, given your setting, given your child's temperament, and therefore the attachment style that you've developed over time. So we're going to throw in some other developmental premises here that may, in fact, give us fodder for future conversations.

SPEAKER_03: 5:50

Sure. Yeah. Like we go between all of them, authoritative parent or authoritarian parenting. Excuse me. Yeah. Like you said, all of them have a good place. The issue that we might run into with that is that with our clients, we are trying to achieve independence. And if people are doing things because somebody else is being authoritarian, that's not really achieving that independence. Or like a wise man once said, we're not raising kids, we're raising adults. And if we're trying to teach people how to be adults... If we're doing it in an authoritarian fashion, then when we're not there, those behaviors aren't going to manifest, and eventually our goal is to not be there as adults. So yes, it might work in a pinch, and we'll talk about situations where it will work in a pinch, and it will also work quickly. It doesn't necessarily lead to independence and decision-making.

SPEAKER_01: 6:40

Okay, so that means you're doing a lot. Other than just setting hard limits, if you spend a lot of time in authoritarian parenting... You might be doing too much, and if you're setting too many limits, then that's going to restrict your level of exposure to different things that you might need to learn about. It's just sort of putting things away, blocking access because something's dangerous, as opposed to talking about the dangers of a certain object. So I like to say sometimes you can look at things, but you can't touch them, and that's when you get to repetitively talk to your young kids about something dangerous, for example?

SPEAKER_03: 7:16

Sure. It's that informative function piece. We'll talk about it as we go through this, but if your child's about to run into the street or there's a loaded gun on the desk, then you should absolutely be authoritarian. But the issue is that when you're not there... And the street's still there, or again, hopefully, in this example, the loaded gun's still there. If you're not there to say no, don't touch that, at some point we have to give that informative function and explain why. Because if they're only doing it because we're saying no, stop, or don't, then when we're not there and that stimulus is still there, again, I'll throw out the gun. That one can easily be proactively removed. But the street's going to be there. The light socket's going to be there. If we're not there, they don't have the informative function, then our authoritarian strategy goes out the window.

SPEAKER_01: 8:01

All right. Now, that's not to say it's going to completely fail. So with your example with the light socket, if over time your child is a toddler, you've got those light socket covers or the electrical outlet covers, and plain and simple, your child has no access to those things, which means you've eliminated the risk of electrical shock in that particular circumstance, then they might get older. and understand the reasons why you've blocked those things. So it's not to say that you've now ruined your child's life, but what we're talking about here is sort of a continuum along at least two dimensions. How demanding are you? And then further, how responsive are you within your demandingness? And that's what defines these four styles. So you're high or low on either one of those dimensions.

SPEAKER_03: 8:47

Sure. And with that piece, too, the last thing I'll say with that is, like you always say, prohibition's the strongest motivator. So if things are prohibited via authoritarian style significantly when a child's a kid, if they've been repressed, for lack of a better term, when they go out into the environment, college or something like that, when the authoritarian person is not there, then we see a lot of behaviors that could be dangerous or things like that because of the fact that prohibition's been so motivating so they haven't been able to stick the thing in the proverbial light socket. But as soon as the parent's not there and they have all the light sockets that they want. They want to explore and see what that's like.

SPEAKER_01: 9:26

I like that for Prospective Parenting Podcast, the proverbial light socket. That's going to be the name of our question and answer parenting podcast soon, Dan. Keep that in mind. Whether

SPEAKER_03: 9:39

that's promiscuity, drug or alcohol use, even diet, whatever. Those are some big light sockets you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01: 9:47

Those are some electrifying light sockets you're talking about over there, man. Absolutely. With some big paper clips. So So I mentioned demandingness and responsiveness. Let's get into sort of some hard definitions. And just to be fully transparent here, I'm just plugging into Google and using a sign called parentingforbrain.com. And they've got a nice little feature here on the four different parenting styles, as laid out by Diana Bomrand in the 1960s out of UC Berkeley. So to read directly from the site, it says, We're talking about authoritarian parenting. So authoritarian and authoritative sound very similar. We'll have to correct each other on that throughout this to make sure we're not confusing our listeners. But we're talking about authoritarian, which represents high levels of parental control yet low levels of parental responsiveness. So although authoritarian parenting and authoritative parenting styles have similar names, they have several important differences in their beliefs, demands, and approaches. While both parental styles demand high standards, authoritarian parents demand blind obedience using reasons such as because I said so. I know you like to allude to that statement. I'll let you loose on that in a second here. Sure, sure. They only allow one-way communication. I think that's where our dear friend Pop Pop was saying, hey, what about the collaborative piece, right? Maybe us kids have something to say. Sure. Strict rules and orders. Any attempts to reason with them are seen as backtalk. So you have no say as the child in this particular situation. An authoritarian parent is a disciplinary parent. Let's highlight that because that is important. They view themselves as authority figures.

SPEAKER_03: 11:40

The best analogy or example I could give with the authoritarian piece is just think military. Do it now because I said so. We don't have time to argue about it. Chain of command. If they're above you, you don't question. You show respect and honor and respect. do what they say, and almost blind obedience in that example.

SPEAKER_01: 11:57

So, it's like you're reading off the site here. But you're not. That's a dance credit. You're nailing it here, at least in conjunction with this particular site. They use stern discipline and often employ harsh punishment. Harsh punishment, pardon me. So, the idea of stern discipline being one thing, Harsh punishment being another thing, and I'm going to let you loose on talking about the side effects of punishment at some point, too. Sure. So corporal punishment as a way to obtain behavioral control. Sometimes the disciplinary style can be coercive, so arbitrary, peremptory, domineering, concerned with marking status distinctions. I am the adult, and therefore I am the only one that can be correct. Authoritarian parents are unresponsive to their child's needs and are generally not nurtured. they usually justify using mean treatment to toughen up their kids. Sure, sure. So in and of itself, again, is that a problem to make sure your kid's got tough skin? But if you're spending too much time in that realm, then maybe we're seeing some undesired side effects.

SPEAKER_03: 13:03

Because the tough skin oftentimes comes at the expense of self-esteem or self-efficacy.

SPEAKER_01: 13:09

Ah, interesting. Okay. So children whose parents have an authoritarian parenting style can be... can have an unhappy disposition, be less independent. appear insecure, possess low self-esteem. Again, Davey. I was not

SPEAKER_03: 13:23

reading

SPEAKER_01: 13:24

that. I know. You've already been listing these things. Exhibit more. So it's interesting because you're... I got stuck there. You were saying this based on our knowledge of applied behavior analysis from a punishment perspective. Yes. And here they're talking about parenting styles developmentally. So I love when that happens, right? Sure. We're talking about two different fields of study, yet the content is exactly the same. That's a really good convergence. Sure. They can appear insecure, possess low self-esteem, exhibit more behavioral problems or conduct issues. So here you start as an authoritarian parent, a disciplinarian, yet you're getting the reverse outcome than you would have anticipated. More temper tantrums, worse academic performance, poor social competence, more prone to internalizing behavior and mental issues, higher risk of substance abuse. Again, you were talking about one of the proverbial light sockets there. Yep. And poor coping skills. Sure. So I'll let you loose, sir.

SPEAKER_03: 14:26

Yeah. Two things I wanted to mention in order. So the first thing that you mentioned is that authoritarian parents or people who exhibit authoritarian strategies rely on punishment a lot. And the issue from that is that In ABA, we're not trying to reduce behavior. We're trying to replace behavior. So yes, if we're using a lot of punishment, that's going to decrease a behavior. But the behavior that takes its place, who knows what that's going to be? And how is that behavior reinforced? Well, maybe it's reinforced just by pleasing the parent. The issue with a lot of the clients that we work with is they may or may not seem like pleasing the parent is motivating enough to maintain that behavior. So that's where, and we'll talk about it later, we get a lot of these, oftentimes it's dads, not always, but a lot of times authoritarian parents that try to do it. And when it's unaffected or ineffective because pleasing the parent isn't motivating enough, then they get frustrated and go to the other side of permissive because authoritarian doesn't work. So that's the first thing with the over-reliance on punishment. The second thing that I saw that you mentioned was that individuals that experience this might actually have more behavioral issues as a result of the authoritarian parenting. And we'll continue to talk about that as we go on. But again, I see this happen a lot where a parent will try to say, do it now because I said so and be really authoritarian. And then when the behavior doesn't occur because they're actually having what might be called maladaptive behaviors or side behaviors, auxiliary behaviors. As a result of that, then they get really frustrated and become permissive as well so if authoritarian parenting is working okay then you know do what works for you parents don't come to us and say help us parent because what we're doing is working they're saying come to us because what we're doing isn't working so even if it does work there's some side effects with independence and withholding um but if it doesn't work then you're going to kind of get caught in this uh catch-22

SPEAKER_01: 16:25

And when we say something isn't working or a parent comes to us, again, really referring to– it's not to say that if a parent feels like their parenting efforts are working. I feel, for example, myself, I feel like I'm a relatively effective parent. It doesn't mean I don't run into challenges or conflict with my kids. In fact, it's par for the course. If you're not finding yourself in some sort of predicament, disagreement at least– Even argument is going to happen, right? But you don't want to spend the majority of your time in that realm. You want to sort of dance around. You want to model a certain level of under-responsiveness. with regard to escalation, meaning, wow, this can really make me upset right now. Oddly enough, before we started recording, we had a... Didn't know if you were

SPEAKER_03: 17:13

going to share the story, but I'm glad you are.

SPEAKER_01: 17:16

We had an interaction with my teenage son, who, as I've mentioned on the podcast before, he's gracious enough to do some sound engineering for us and actually allow us his reptile studio, which is his bedroom, to record ABA on tap, where a lot of the recording equipment lives. And he was having a good time. exchanging information with us and telling us about his recent college tours and here we are sort of looking at the clock going okay we've set up a time frame and we've got a schedule to run and he needs to go somewhere and need to pick up my daughter elsewhere and he's not actively thinking about these things but I am and

SPEAKER_03: 17:53

then it went to the belt

SPEAKER_01: 17:54

and the clothing and then he's getting dressed again we're in his bedroom so he's just stalling and during any of those moments I could have easily justifiably been like hey man get out of here right And at which point then maybe he feels bad about it or he snaps back. So whatever it is, I had to make a decision there. How am I going to let him know? Am I just going to endure this? And at the end of the day, it was maybe, what, five, six minutes extra, right? But in my mind, if I allow myself to my own autonomic response to escalate and escalate, then suddenly I'm speaking to him in a way that I wouldn't want him speaking back to me. And then maybe I'm being too overly authoritarian in that moment. But I did find a way to sort of say, oh, the the teenage brain. I took a few jabs, which he was a good sport about, and again, stayed within that authoritative piece.

SPEAKER_03: 18:43

because your cognition was still high because you weren't that escalated, you were almost able to do that math in your head of say, you know what, this is taking five or six minutes, but if I escalate this situation, by the time I'm de-escalated, speaking for you, by the time you're de-escalated and ready to record and then your son's de-escalated and you have enough mental processes to record, that's going to be a lot longer than five or six minutes. So you're going to be negative in the hole there.

SPEAKER_01: 19:07

And it's not to say that I wasn't frustrated. It's not to say that very kindly and graciously Mr. Dan here wasn't Like, okay, is this kid going to get out of here so we can do a recording? Of course, Dan very graciously and politely didn't say anything about it. But again, so my point being, it wasn't that I wasn't frustrated. It's not that it's bad for me to have been frustrated. It's about how I communicated that frustration. And that's what I meant by underreaction. I could have let my frustration guide my commentary and the way I addressed him. But instead, I sort of bit my tongue a little bit and kind of waited it out. And then it resolved itself. OK, so very, very small microcosm example of parenting there. But I thought it was a good one. And we kind of laughed at it beforehand because you remarked, hey, well, that took a little while. And it's like, yeah, he's being a teenager. He probably wants to hang out a little bit. He's enjoying talking to us. All things that are positive that if I escalate in that moment, I run the risk of sucking all the life out of it, all the reinforcement out of it, because now he's feeling badly. He's feeling like I called him out. I mean, all these things that are hard to measure in ABA. But I think it's good for us to talk about them.

SPEAKER_03: 20:16

Yeah, I had to do a little theory of mind check and say, this is what your face was telling me. Is that actually correct or not? Apparently it was. But I guess wrapping up on a little bit of authoritarian so we can move to the next one and define them and then potentially come back, is the benefits of authoritarian parenting is things get done quickly. So your child's running into the street. Your child's doing something that could be potentially dangerous. Get it done quickly? Absolutely. So authoritarian parenting is going to be great for those kind of things. It's oftentimes used when parents themselves get frustrated. That doesn't mean it's a benefit. That's just when it's being used. But the benefits are things get done quickly at the expense of independence. There's going to be continuum from everything. You've got quickness and independence. Authoritarian is going to be really good on that quick side if it works. Now, again, if it doesn't work, like Mike just talked about, now, not only is it not independent, but it's not quick. If it does work, it's quick. But the deficit of authoritarian parenting is it doesn't lead to independence If you're not there saying, you need to be out the door at 7 o'clock, or you need to put your shoes on, or you need to eat your cereal, then how do they know what time they need to leave the house? Or how do they know it's time to eat the cereal? How do they know what someone else's face is telling them, unless you're giving them the cues in their environment to acknowledge these things? And authoritarian parenting doesn't usually allow for giving the individual the ability to identify these cues in their environment. You're telling them what needs to happen, and maybe mandating that they follow through quickly.

SPEAKER_01: 21:45

So you mentioned the learning curve there. excuse me, the learning is going to be gradual. And it's very reinforcing to get the quick response, especially from your teenagers. So you've got to discriminate those two conditions as a parent to realize that quick isn't always better. Yes,

SPEAKER_03: 22:02

that's a tricky one. Because authoritarian parenting, when it works, it seems really good. And sometimes I'll even have parents, again, more times dads than moms, but be like, if I just use the dad voice, they listen right away. Watch. And they'll do it. And he'll be like, look, that's good. And I'm like, well, okay, that's good for you. But does that work for mom or does that work for a school teacher? Does that work for ABA therapist? Because we're not able to use that level of authoritarian parenting. So even if it does work, it's not necessarily generalizable that well for the rest of the team.

SPEAKER_01: 22:34

Really, really good points. And we'll come back to some of those. Let's move on just for the sake of time and talk about then authoritative parenting, which is now high demand parenting. But also high response in contrast to the authoritarian parenting. Which is high demand, low response. Low response. You might feel responsive as an authoritarian parent, but there's an element missing there. And this definition will hopefully highlight that.

SPEAKER_03: 22:58

And so with demand and response, again, think of like high... Me say, high, you say. So with authoritarian, it's high me say, low you say. I don't care what you say. I don't want to listen to it. Authoritative parenting, both individuals feel heard in this situation.

SPEAKER_01: 23:13

So authoritative parents have high expectations for achievement and maturity, but they are also warm and responsive. So there is an authoritarian aspect to it there. But then on the responsiveness side, there is what we would call maybe the reinforcement, the kindness, the verbal praise, the informative fun you alluded to earlier, which is maybe I raised my voice and stopped you from hitting the street there, crossing the street, but then I'm going to be able to come down from my escalation and take the time to explain things to you calmly and slowly from a more gradual learning process.

SPEAKER_03: 23:48

I presented homework and you're expressing to me that you don't want to do homework. I might listen to you for a minute and go back and address some of those concerns potentially to let you know that I'm on your side. Authoritative parenting does a really good job of letting the individual will know that you're on their side.

SPEAKER_01: 24:04

Nice. So these parents set rules and enforce boundaries by having open discussions, providing guidance, and using reasoning. Perfectly stated.

SPEAKER_03: 24:13

Again, only when the individual is at baseline. There's been a lot of times, and again, I haven't read this, so hopefully you're not just about to cover it, but a lot of times parents will get in arguments with kids about homework or something like that. And at some point, the child's no longer trying to acquire information. They're just trying to delay the homework. At that point, it's probably not conducive to the situation to be going back and forth at that point. At that point, it might be a time to be a little bit more authoritarian or to say, hey, I've addressed it, we're done. But yes, the discussion is a very important part of the authoritative parenting. I just wanted to establish that it doesn't mean that every homework presentation needs to be a 45-minute long discussion.

SPEAKER_01: 24:57

I love this ping pong we're playing because, again, I know you're not reading off of my screen, but you're giving a perfect behavioral description of now the other side of this developmental take on it. So disciplinary methods are confrontative, right? They're not conflictive. They're confrontative. Yes, we are coming to a head here. We have to talk about the situation. They're reasoned. They're negotiable, which is important, especially when we're going to talk about collaborative parenting in a little bit. I think negotiable is a key uh term here outcome oriented and concerned with regulating behaviors instead of being coercive

SPEAKER_03: 25:36

that's an interesting um yeah confrontational is an interesting reflecting back on the aba and policing episode so clearly um being a police officer they have the ability to be authoritarian they can theoretically deprive somebody of their personal freedom so the question is Can they first be authoritative, and then if that doesn't work, maybe become authoritarian, or do sometimes they just jump right to being authoritarian when maybe they could have used an authoritative solution first?

SPEAKER_01: 26:03

And that's a really important comparison you're making, because as a parent, you might have a child who has a certain type of temperament, for example, in which case they might promote a little bit more of an authoritarian style at first to bring them down to a level where you can be authoritative, so you've got to secure the them first again to use that very loose example of running into the street there's no time to be authoritative there you have to put a hard limit and what might happen with policing given their repeated experiences with people who require more authoritarianism to be put under control is they start with the assumption that you are going to not comply for example so that's a really important example you're making there and again really highlighting the fact that you can only stay authoritative for so long before you might need to move into some of the other aspects of parenting to ensure secure the situation but then more importantly coming back to the authoritative or the collaborative part which is I'm listening to you I'm giving you my best definition my best information toward a safe and successful and efficient outcome here and then from a collaborative perspective which is what I think this means you might find that your child has an idea you didn't think about that actually works that fits the bill you might not prefer it might not be the most time efficient it might not be what you want to do in that moment but you might want to take the time to take their lead and go oh you were right here too which in turn will make them offer more suggestions in the future which may or may not be viable so it's not like authoritative parenting is just a magic wand and suddenly you're opening up a can of negotiating worms please be ready for that

SPEAKER_03: 27:45

yep I saw an example of that again I don't think we should go into it too much because we got a lot of examples and a lot of stuff to cover but This morning or this afternoon when I came and joined and your schedule was no longer conducive for your kids' schedule and vice versa and could have been very authoritarian, but you took more of an authoritative, like, all right, let's figure out how we can work this out because otherwise I'm going to get really upset about this situation. The last thing I'll say for the police... Oh, go ahead, Mike Regan.

SPEAKER_01: 28:11

No, so I was just going to say, just to clarify or add a little bit more background there. Yeah, I mean, you best laid plans, right? And teenagers like toddlers are going to Yep. Yep. Yep. But it still means that we'll do family dinner. Again, all those things, it's a very dynamic process, parenting, man. So thank you for highlighting my calm and patience as we go through this episode today. Yes,

SPEAKER_03: 29:03

because I think what you were able to figure out is, again, I don't remember what the specific times were, but say 1 o'clock was all of a sudden now becoming 2 o'clock. That's

SPEAKER_01: 29:11

exactly what it was. When they were supposed to be

SPEAKER_03: 29:13

home at 1, now it's becoming 2 o'clock. Now you could fight that situation and... Either if you're successful, if you win, now they come home upset at 2 o'clock and now you're upset at 2 o'clock or you lose and now they're coming home later because everybody's frustrated. So it's kind of a lose-lose if you want to be really authoritarian in that. And then the last thing I'll say with the police example before we move on, it seems like authoritarian may be good for immediate safety concerns. I'm sorry, yeah, authoritarian could be good for immediate safety concerns to the police thing. Everything else could at least start potentially with authoritative, and then move accordingly.

SPEAKER_01: 29:51

And what we're saying there, to go back to, say, cycles of escalation, is that if you're going to employ authoritarian parenting, the best way to do so is without escalation. So is that possible? Not easily. Not easily achieved. But the idea that you can become firm, set a limit, Take a deep breath, back up, and then start reasoning again.

SPEAKER_03: 30:14

There was a great quote I heard from Mr. Mike Rubio that I use in my presentations that when disciplining a child or correcting a child, they should be the one upset, not you.

SPEAKER_01: 30:25

In all fairness, I'm pretty sure I took that from Dr. Pat Fryman. somewhere in your head. being escalated at the right level to jump to get your child away from harm, but then suddenly deescalate quickly enough to not somehow be angry or escalated in your tone as you explain to your child why you just startled them, swooped them up. You know, maybe in some situations, this is where I would say, I don't practice it necessarily, but where I would say a nice swat on the bottom would work in terms of startling, right? It might make the child cry a little bit, but you don't want You want that to sustain. You want to be able to soothe that quickly or relatively quickly to be able to come back now and say, you know, that's dangerous. The car was coming. If you get hit, I would be disappointed. You would be hurt. All those things that, you know, a toddler, they're staring at you blankly with tears. You may not think they're understanding, but over time, if you're adopting this parenting style, they will understand that pattern as they also learn more language and learn receptively, both expressively and receptively are able to then, you know, talk back to you without using the negative connotation of talk back which now an authoritarian mode might interpret easily you're talking back to me it's just about what i say don't run into the street again not in not completely incorrect but maybe not as efficient maybe probably not as effective over time

SPEAKER_03: 32:15

yep absolutely and as we go through these i do want to highlight that each one of them have their place uh we've talked about authoritarian gotten into authoritative we'll continue to talk about permissive probably not neglectful but the first three have their place. But keep in mind, whatever you're doing, we want you to make sure you're doing it with a purpose. We want you to make sure you're responding, not reacting. So if you're using an authoritarian parenting style, make sure you're doing it not as a result of an escalation, but you're doing it because that's the best parenting style for that situation in that moment. If you're using authoritative parenting, that you're using it because that's the best option in that moment. And you're not doing it as a result of being frustrated or escalating because we've talked about so often and we'll continue to talk about the kids are going to do what they're going to do. Your son's going to take a while to get dressed. They're going to do what they're going to do. It's how we respond to the situation that's going to make it worse or better.

SPEAKER_01: 33:11

I cannot highlight that enough or stress that enough. We're going to react to stimuli in our environment. We know that behaviorally speaking. And now what we're saying is this pause before you you act on that reaction or what you're saying, the response, right? Yep. I think that is so important because that's now a behavioral trick. We often, people in ABA might say, or sort of look at us as a magic wand, right? So this is the strategy. We do this, this, and this, and then our child behaves immediately. Well, yes, and maybe no. Maybe, again, learning is gradual. So the idea that you're learning that this might work, and then you're also learning to lean into that reinforcement such that your escalation could be held at bay let me see if I can explain that more practically or more pragmatically as I'm sitting here becoming frustrated and you've done a great job of getting into my head today with my son's example for example um As I'm getting frustrated, it's not, again, not bad for me to be frustrated, but it's what I say as a result of that frustration that may now, as you were saying, insult him a little bit or irk him a little bit. Now we're in a back and forth for real where he is talking back, not negotiating. And it's all construed by my initial escalation in reaction, not planful response to that circumstance.

SPEAKER_03: 34:30

Yep. It's how you bring it into the world. You're going to feel how you're going to feel, but how you bring it into the world is going to affect how the other people around you respond to I

SPEAKER_01: 34:36

got to say that might be one of the hardest tenets of parenting that I can describe is you're always on the spot. You're always modeling, right? So that's not to say you can't get angry. Again, if you're spending by and large the majority of your time in that anger reaction, there's going to be problems. You're going to be creating challenges for yourself. Parenting troubles are inevitable. The suffering... is somewhat optional. But do it with a purpose. Make some meaning out of it, like they say. Actually, the suffering is always optional, and sometimes you express it a little bit. Sometimes. But if you spend too much time expressing that suffering or that anger or that frustration, that is what you're cultivating, to use your phrasing. What you put out there, that's what you're going to get back.

SPEAKER_04: 35:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 35:26

All right, so really quickly, because we are, man, always having fun on the tap here. Time flies. So, based on Bombrin's research on parenting style, I love it. Because these kids feel heard. Exhibit less violent tendencies. Are securely attached. I have alluded to temperament and attachment. I don't know that we're going to get to that today, maybe a little bit other than mentioning them, but these are all important parts. I've talked about joint attention and imitation and language and play. Well, temperament, attachment, and parenting styles, that's a different stew recipe that, again, we're alluding to now. We'll see how much we get into the other elements. Have a good parent-child relationship. So imagine that you try to have a reciprocal interaction with your children, especially when they're having quote-unquote disciplinary issues, and you get back a nice, calm, negotiating, authoritative child. Sure. Not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_03: 36:43

Because they feel empowered. And again, I just want to highlight that we're not saying the child should be on the same level as the parent or they should be running the household at all, but it's the idea of can we both make a win out of this situation versus me winning and you losing. So...

SPEAKER_01: 36:59

Perfect segue into the idea of permissive parenting. Let's chat about

SPEAKER_03: 37:03

that

SPEAKER_01: 37:03

one. Or in the 80s, sort of expanded to the idea of indulgent or lenient parenting, meaning it's sort of a negative reinforcement model, right? It always feels good. You're always putting out the fire. Your child's always nicely quelled. Not necessarily happy, but always placated. And now you can feel great as a parent because there's not that stressful crying and whining and complaining they do. Teenagers do it too. It's not there. So you make that go away. You feel like you're killing it as a parent, but likely not Sure. That's

SPEAKER_03: 37:40

focusing on being their friend more than their parent in that

SPEAKER_01: 37:42

situation. So you can be friendly all the time. Absolutely. You can be their friend at times. Yep. But if you lose that authoritative or more collaborative, again, to use that new term element to it, again, there could be problems. So we're talking about low-demand parenting. High response. Yep. So similar to authoritative parenting. Lo me say, high you say. Say that again.

SPEAKER_03: 38:06

Lo me say is the parent. High you

SPEAKER_01: 38:08

say is the kid. So the child runs the coop here. Yep. Okay.

UNKNOWN: 38:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 38:12

Permissive parents, also known as passive parents, set very few parental rules and boundaries, and they are reluctant to enforce rules. Why reluctant? Because your child might respond in a way that you don't want others to see, that you don't like hearing.

SPEAKER_03: 38:28

Could be multiple reasons, right? Could be guilt. It could be they are trying to preemptively avoid a situation. They could be that they don't want their child to feel a certain way. We're not going to get into that. That's a million wormholes we could get down, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:40

So these indulgent parents are warm and indulgent. Sure. Sure. Possess egocentric tendencies. Imagine that. So if nobody's sort of working with you or imposing on you the idea that you might think about others. So if your dad and his podcast partner are sitting waiting to record and you're rightfully so in your bedroom, the recording studio as well, and you're sort of picking out your outfit and lagging. And again, in that moment, I could have gotten upset, but I just kind of sat back and was like, hey, kind of looking at him. We're ready. Look at the microphones. are up and you actually set those things up and can I make you mindful of the fact that somebody else is also on your time it's not just your time

SPEAKER_03: 39:37

and the problem with being overly permissive in that situation is if there are people in the environment like yourself that was potentially getting frustrated in the situation and your son wasn't able to identify that then in the future that's going to be detrimental because you maybe if you're too permissive that person is going to expect other people in the environment to behave that way And that might not work. There's a lot of parents that'll say, oh, my kid does really well with younger kids and adults, but not people his age. Well, why? Because younger kids and adults tend to be much more permissive and flexible and waiting out than peers of that kid's age.

SPEAKER_01: 40:12

Now, there was something really important that I was going to miss out on, the idea that I might look disappointed later because he made me late. Again, these are all things that also have value and might fall out of our authoritative comfort zone. But as long as you're not spending too much time outside of that comfort zone, it's going to be okay. It's okay for your children to see that you're a little bit frustrated, a little bit annoyed, that you're disappointed, that you're downright angry. But we're also modeling de-escalation for our kiddos at that point in time. So there's a lot of dynamics. Parenting is not easy. Okay, so they might also encounter more problems in relationships and social interactions.

SPEAKER_03: 40:50

Because they're used to having the power. They're used to not being told no. And when they're told no at some point, that becomes very traumatic to that

SPEAKER_01: 40:55

individual. So if somebody does give you some kickback on that, you're going to get upset about it. You're not accustomed to being responsive.

SPEAKER_03: 41:03

So there was an analogy that my old mentor used to say. And he would say, it's the kid's job to set the wall. or it's our job to set the wall and the child's job to constantly figure out where it is. And if as a parent, you're being too permissive, you're not giving that child fair walls to understand what they can and can't do. And that's actually going to create more anxiety and stress for that individual. So it is important that we do set rigid walls or walls that are understandable and the child understands and are consistent. Otherwise, if we're too permissive, then the issue is that child's actually going to be more stressed out because they aren't going to have any level of consistency in their life.

SPEAKER_01: 41:46

So I've been over the past few episodes here I've

SPEAKER_03: 41:51

been putting

SPEAKER_01: 41:59

this in different places. out something called Magic Mind. I keep these guys cold in the refrigerator and enjoy my shot along with my hot coffee, and the contrast of cold and hot is invigorating on its own. Magic Mind is so easy to use. It tastes clean and healthy, and it's helped me jump right into the day without jitters or stomach discomfort, which can be common with caffeine overload. Now, I find that when I can get Magic Mind in me for about three days in a row, The effects really begin to kick in. And thanks to the adaptogens that boost my mind and help me relax, I can also feel like I'm in that natural flow state. I found this little shot has improved my mornings tremendously and again my entire day. It helps me sustain my mental flow all day right into a nice restful evening and a nice night's sleep. I love that I can take it with me anywhere and drink it whenever I need a quick energy boost. I keep it cold in my fridge and I find it tastes even better chilled. So, if you want to boost your brain performance, your memory, your mental acuity, your alertness, please do try Magic Mind today, just like Mr. Dan and I have. In fact, please do look at this episode description to find a link with a discount toward your prospective purchase. I hope you try Magic Mind and enjoy the benefits that I have discovered.

SPEAKER_03: 44:07

Very well said. So without further ado, let's get into neglectful parenting and talk about what that one is.

SPEAKER_01: 44:14

All right. So again, along that continuum of demandingness and responsiveness, this is low, low. So I'm not sure who's saying anything here. You

SPEAKER_03: 44:22

don't care what I say, and I

SPEAKER_01: 44:24

don't care what you say. Neglectful parents do not set firm boundaries or high standards. They are indifferent to their children's needs and are uninvolved in their lives. These uninvolved parents may have mental issues themselves, such as depression. I don't like the way that reads. They may have mental health troubles. Sure. Not that their kids are going to come out with that way, but there's a chance you're running a risk here. And maybe some extraneous reasons that they're engaging in this level of parenting. Right. Uh, So there could be depression. There could be abuse. They could have faced neglect when they were kids themselves. And the children of neglectful parents, as you might imagine, are much more impulsive, cannot self-regulate emotion, encounter much more delinquent behavior and addiction problems later in life, per current research, and have more mental health concerns, suicidal behavior in adolescence, for example.

SPEAKER_03: 45:17

Makes sense. Yeah, I don't think we really need to get into this one too much because I don't think a lot of our listeners are going to be engaging in this type of parenting. Otherwise, they wouldn't be neglectful likely in listening to our podcast.

SPEAKER_01: 45:30

If you're coming to, say, a parent group to say, I need improvement, we're going to assume safely that to a safe extent, you're beyond this level because you're seeking self-improvement. But if you do find yourself facing mental health challenges, do address those first. It's a little bit like the airplane and the oxygen mask right make sure that you're doing okay and then you help somebody else often as parents that's a challenge because we want to put our kids first rightfully so but in this particular situation we're going to say please please make sure that all of you out there if you're listening as parents or professionals address address your mental health make sure you're feeling good because that puts you in the best state to be able to help others exactly

SPEAKER_03: 46:13

like I always say if you don't have any gas in your gas tank then you're not getting anywhere

SPEAKER_01: 46:17

All right, so let's talk a little bit about the idea of collaborative parenting because I would be remiss if I didn't.

SPEAKER_03: 46:24

Pop Pop would be upset at you.

SPEAKER_01: 46:26

So I did find an article from NeuroDiverging.com that talks about collaborative parenting, and they have two parts on this. They sort of talk about collaborative parenting being the best for the child with ADHD, and then they go ahead and do a second part where they give some tips on about how to best implement the idea of collaborative parenting.

SPEAKER_03: 46:50

I think the important thing as we go through this collaborative parenting piece will be to identify whether collaborative parenting is different than authoritative parenting or literally just another name for authoritative parenting.

SPEAKER_01: 47:03

That's a really good point. I do want to discern that distinction. I personally like the Bomberin model, and I think that sometimes we make up euphemisms or other terms in order to expand the topic. Sometimes they're just downright being repetitive. So I do appreciate that objective here. So what they're saying here in terms of what you might need to do before you try collaborative parenting, and this really caught my eye, believe that your kiddo is doing their absolute best. It's not because they're lazy, stupid, or mean. They may just lack the skills they need to succeed. So let's help them learn those skills together. You often talk about a can't do versus a won't do. This is what we're talking about here. Yep, absolutely. All right. Moving on. Lose the ego. I'm the parent, so my way is the right way. Nope.

SPEAKER_03: 47:55

Yeah, not necessarily. At the end of the day, you do have the ability as the parent legally to become authoritarian and to make the child do what you want them to do if you're able to do that. But just because you have that ability doesn't mean that it's necessitated at every given time.

SPEAKER_01: 48:12

So to use my example for today, my schedule and my clock got set back an hour, right? I could get really frustrated with that. Or I could say, and why am I doing that? Because I'm being lazy. Because I want to be done with recording our podcast and not have to get back in the car to drive halfway across the city to pick up my daughter who could have been picked up by her brother. You get my point. So you can really get in of that headspace for yourself, and then suddenly you find that you're making it about you when maybe you might need to listen to the solutions your kids are presenting, even though it costs you a little bit extra. Yeah. Yep. Lose the threats, the bribes, the punishments, the idea that if you don't put your shoes on right now, no TV for a week, I mean it this time, does that ever really work anyway?

SPEAKER_03: 49:00

That's challenging. And I think collaborative parents do use punishments. as they use reinforcement. But the thing is, again, you're doing it responding to the situations and you're doing it because you're doing it on purpose you're not getting frustrated because the child's not responding to your instruction maybe in an authoritative authoritarian fashion and now you're doing it reacting to the situation it's very different whereas if you say hey you know what um there's a new house rule that if we're in a hurry and you don't put on your shoes then there's going to be xyz punishment but if you do it as a result of hey put on your shoes and then you start to get really frustrated And then later on, you don't even follow through with your frustration. That's not going to get you anywhere.

SPEAKER_01: 49:45

So you're talking about a... reciprocity and a relationship which again it's like you're reading the uh the computer's mind today you're reading google's mind today dan

SPEAKER_03: 49:54

and again with the uh with the shoe situation are there are going to be times where you're pretty much going to have a hard cut off and not going to be able to collaborate anymore and it's going to be like look you're either going out with or without the shoes because we got to leave five minutes ago um so yeah we want to collaborate as much as possible there are going to be times again we move back and forth

SPEAKER_01: 50:12

I love the shoes example because it works. It applies to toddlers as well as teenagers. And then it creates certain outcomes, right? So the idea that you're in a rush. I have to put my shoes on. Oh, bring them in the car. And then suddenly your teenagers always bring in their shoes in the car. Again, I have to put my own preferences aside at times and go, okay, fine. They're in the car. They can put their shoes in the car. Sometimes it gets the best of me. And I'm like, could you not put your shoes on in there? Well, I was going to be late and you weren't. Okay, you're right. I created this monster. Sounds good. We're on our way. We're on time.

SPEAKER_03: 50:48

We're good. Well, that's the problem with being permissive is we say you always got to pick and choose your battles. And by all means, you do as a parent. You can't fight all of your battles. But each time that you give up on one, understand it's going to be that much more difficult in the future because you're now creating a habit.

SPEAKER_01: 51:03

Okay, so let's wrap up this portion here. I like what this particular article again on NeuroDiverging.com says. It says, although actually enacting the collaborative method can be a little more complex or a little complex, the basics are that you are committing to listening to each other. to hearing each other's points of view, and to compromising and collaborating as much as possible to make everybody as comfortable as possible. You are committing to being on the same team forever. And that might be one point of contrast from the more established definition of authoritative parenting, which in using that authoritative The authoritarian route sort of implies that the child gets options, but the collaborative part highlights the idea that the child might be contributing those options. And I think that's what, again, to our dear friend Pop Pop, that's what I think he's talking about here. And I think that's an important contrast. So it's not to say that the authoritative parenting... cannot include this it's to say this is a really good extension of that definition

SPEAKER_03: 52:11

so one thing i get from parents a lot regarding this parenting model or even the authoritative parenting model is well should everything that i ask my kid to do be a discussion what are your thoughts on that

SPEAKER_01: 52:22

again this is where i would say that sometimes the authoritarian part needs to come in and no there is no discussion on this but if you find yourself saying that 50, 60% of the time, you're probably overreaching, and now you're limiting independence somewhere. So this is very much a continuum. It's something that's in flux. There's vacillation amongst all areas, but we're really wanting to state that the authoritative and the collaborative part need to be the mainstay. That's where you spend the majority of your time. But yeah, to your question, I think sometimes it is okay to say, look, there's no discussion on this because... There's no time because I don't see any other routes out. So, yes, as the figure of authority being a parent, I am going to put my foot down this one time and say no. Does that just say that you're right in that moment? No. You could be missing some things. But, yes, again, to your question, I think that's okay once in a while.

SPEAKER_03: 53:23

Or there can be discussion on it, just not right this second. We don't need to discuss your shoe situation when we're already five minutes late. Because me as a parent, and you might not say this to your child because you're five minutes late, but because me as a parent is going to be hitting my escalation here pretty soon, and if I'm escalated, I'm not going to be receptive to what's going on in this situation as well. It comes back to

SPEAKER_01: 53:43

us. What an amazing model, right? To be able to look at your child at some point in time and say, you know, Dad, Mom, I am... I am a little bit frustrated right now, so I can't think clearly enough to give you the best answer. You're going to have to trust me right now, child, and just do what I'm asking you to do. And again, in that moment, are you the... the perfect authority figure? No. You're just enforcing your authority with good reason. One phrase I like to say is, do you have the time and the energy to do something? If you don't, then you might traipse over into a little bit of the permissive realm, again, within safety parameters. If you do have the time and the energy, that's when you might choose to then enforce the rule a little bit more cleanly. That doesn't mean that you eliminate discussion or negotiation, but that you might, as the authority figure as the parent, might have to veto or enforce the rule and say, look, I'm sorry, but at this point in time, it's going to be my decision.

SPEAKER_03: 54:41

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny you say enforce the rule with good reason because good reason to us might not be good reason to the kid.

SPEAKER_01: 54:48

Exactly. So you may never achieve that 100% agreement in those moments. And again, that's okay to go back to the light socket, the street, the dangerous situation where there really is no other alternative. Is that to say that you're always going to find yourself in those circumstances when you're being authoritarian? No. There's going to be mores and rules and... My teenagers are going to hate that there's such a big part of this episode. But the idea of dress and style and how revealing you are with those things. These are all things that the current mode might say, that's okay that your daughter's wearing that. But my traditional parenting style, because clearly if you look at me, I'm very orthodox and very traditional in my style. But even for me, that's a little bit liberal in my mode of dress. might hit an authoritarian point with my child's mode of dress and say, ah, I don't like that. And then they're saying, but my friend's wearing this, but the school seems okay with it. They've never told me anything about this. So now you're, as much as you want to be authoritarian about it, you are now collaborating, hopefully.

SPEAKER_03: 55:56

Well, school dress code with teenagers is a great example of that, right? Are you going to let your daughter go to school in a bikini every day? Well, that's probably going to be too permissive. Are you going to say, no, you can't go in this and you have to wear a trench coat and whatever that's probably going to be too authoritarian and as a result of that what are they probably going to have under the trench coat the bikini right so finding that that middle ground of authoritative of we're not going to argue about it right now because we're already late to school i'm about to start to get escalated right now so you can still be collaborative but i'm going to be collaborative with you when i'm not escalated and we can have a discussion that i think is going to benefit you a lot better from your perspective

SPEAKER_01: 56:35

it's funny you you talk about the bikini under the trench coat because because that is such a... Such a real example in terms of your child might be placating you and collaborating with you in that moment out the door to get that negative reinforcement in you off their back and then still getting theirs in terms of their mode of dress by taking off the sweatshirt. You have to be ready for that. And in that moment when you realize that happened, yes, you might talk to your child about, hey, we had an agreement. There was trust. But you might also in that moment before you escalate realize that they're adhering to your rule, at least in front of your face, before it leaving and then be a little bit of express a little bit of gratitude for yourself in that not that you're going to tell your child that but really now talking about trust which is what this collaborative effort is trying to say is this effort of exchanging with your child talking to them compromising negotiating over time is going to build this thing we call trust which is not very quantifiable but very important no less

SPEAKER_03: 57:36

exactly and that's as I mentioned to you know prohibition being the strongest motivator on the authoritarian side and the authoritarian side being a very high me say very low you say kind of thing a lot of these individuals like maybe a teenager that wants to dress differently or a three-year-old whatever it can be whatever in this example doesn't feel like you're on their team and doesn't feel like you understand you know parents don't understand right that's a big one with the authoritarian so they just don't understand what's going on so that's why they're gonna wear the stuff under the the trench coat and things like because you know what dad just doesn't understand I know what best for me. Whereas if you're authoritative and you allow them to talk so they feel that you understand their side of things and they feel that you're actually looking out for their best interest from their perspective, they're much less likely to have that. It's much less likely to be, well, parents don't understand because you're not being confrontational, you're being collaborative.

SPEAKER_01: 58:28

So as the father of two teenagers and a two-year-old, I can say yes to your example. It also applies to the two-year-old and we have a joke with their teachers at our preschool, I'll Oftentimes when we arrive at school, they'll joke and say, oh, so Genevieve picked her clothes this morning. And the answer is yes. Yes, she did. So and again, pick your battles in that moment. Are we going to am I going to get into a full out argument with a two year old and delay our time? She's going to be crying. That's going to further annoy or escalate me because we're hardwired to respond to that cry. Or is it OK that a two year old is wearing mismatching clothes? Oh, no. Right. Oh, no. You could get completely caught up in that as a parent. Oh, that looks awful, and that's ridiculous, and those shoes are too big, or those shoes are too small. They have a black sock and a white sock on. Oh, no. The answer is get them in the car, in the stroller, get them on their way to the preschool, and then lean on those very, very respectable professionals over there who are not going to care whether your child has mismatched socks.

SPEAKER_03: 59:35

Even for teens. That's a great example. As a father, you could be very authoritarian and be like you need to change your socks right now and now they're going to be frustrated or you can send them to school with different color socks and if their peers laugh at them or make fun of them as a result that's going to go much farther in changing their behavior than an authoritarian parent would

SPEAKER_01: 59:53

All right, sir. We are certainly running over time here today, and that's okay because we've got a good flow on a good topic. Didn't realize this could actually be a two-part series. We're not sure how this is going to end up. We might split it up into two, but we have to talk about at least one more style of parenting. And again, if you plug in parenting styles to your Google search, you're going to get everything. a variety of different parenting styles. We are launching off of the base of Diana Bomren's 1960s research, which has really, really stood the test of time, has been tested across cultures in different countries, and it seems like parents nicely sort themselves out into these four categories. And now we've added the collaborative piece, maybe under the authoritative umbrella, and We're going to add one more, which maybe would fall under the authoritarian umbrella, knowing that sometimes those parenting styles are also appropriate and also need to be called into play. And I'm very, very proud to be handing this over to you here, Dan, to talk about commando parenting and somebody that made this famous, whom I know you appreciate very much and is coming off the air soon. Maybe he'll have time to come on ABA on tap now. And we can pick his brain a little bit, but I'll hand it over to you so

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:15

you can talk about commando parenting. So making sure that you have everyone on the same page. Now, specifically in this example, it says, So we do get this a lot that parents will say, I want to implement this, but I just don't have enough time. Or dad's at work and I don't have enough time. Well, in this situation, this is going to be your priority. You're going to forego whatever other issues that you have because those other issues are not unimportant, but this issue of parenting is going to supersede those other issues and importance. So maybe you take time off of work or whatever, but the parenting issue is going to be number one at the forefront by all parties. It says, an example of commando parenting is stripping everything from your child's room. Take everything that they love and enjoy, and then basically they're going to have to earn that back. So... Yeah. I don't know if you want me to continue. It says, be prepared for war, that extinction burst. So you take everything from any individual's room. If I were to come into your house and strip everything from it, Mike, and say you have to earn it back, I'd be prepared for war.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:51

I might be pretty upset about that. Now, again, let's contextualize this, right? Somebody watches this on a popular TV show, which they very well... might have done. And now you're taking this example of parenting and generalizing over your child who is more or less compliant, more or less behaves well, but you just don't like that they're staying out late once in a while or that you don't like the posters on their wall. Something that you don't prefer. I don't think that this is being advised, this style of parenting is being advised for those situations. This is being advised for those situations where your child metaphorically wants to run out into the street somehow and is involved in something dangerous. So if you're going to go to war, that's got to be a pretty serious offense that you're bad Yes. Now, again, the point I'm trying to make is that if you just take this out of context, you might think this is a parenting mode that is good at all times. I don't think this is what the source is saying. This is saying this has a time and a place. And then I would contend you still want to go back into the authoritative mode at some point after this. If this commando parenting is successful, you should find yourself. in the authoritative realm again if you're playing commando for the majority of your child's life that's probably not a good thing

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:12

yes this is like a last resort kind of parenting this is for those kids that are you know running away a lot or really creating a lot of havoc and aggression in the household and going out into common rooms and being assaultive or you're saying no phone and they go and find and take the phone um and are assaulting other family members or siblings and that that's why in that example they said everybody being prepared for war So in that example, they talked about dad taking the time off of work because maybe you have other siblings or things like that that mom isn't able to keep the other siblings safe. So they have to placate the one. in order to keep the other siblings safe so basically the command of parenting is we're going to get all hands on deck and we're going to from basically the root level work on this behavior and it also mentioned rewarding good behavior as well so it's it's not just a pure punishment model it says hey these people can earn things back in their room and earn access to this privileges contingent on good behavior um which is which is obviously going to be important we are trying to teach those desired behaviors but but yeah

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:16

it doesn't mean you're shouting orders it doesn't mean you're dressed in camouflage fatigues right face paint and you've got a bullhorn and you're just step to fall in is that what it means that you have that attitude you're not necessarily doing those things sure so you can still be use a calm tone you can still use good words it doesn't mean that you're shouting orders like a commando just means that your dedication is that of somebody in commando mode

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:47

Exactly. Maybe we have a 15-year-old in this example that's just refusing to do homework, just not doing homework. From this perspective, we've tried other things to try to get this individual to do homework, from natural reinforcement of good grades, to being able to hang out with your friends, to having access to the iPad, whatever it is. None of that's working. Now we're going to Basically strip everything away and then build back up. When you start to do homework, you can start to get those privileges back.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:14

So the commando part there being I've taken control of the issue as your father, for example. I am putting time aside every night to do that homework. I have made a plan to remove some quote unquote privileges that you get to earn back, really to try and motivate you to let you know this is getting serious now. These are things that are privileges, for example, in your room that you don't need, but that we're to give you if you're holding up your part of the deal. So commando is more about time. It's more about attention. It's more about precision and not about this general tone of firmness, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:50

It's removing those competing stimuli. If you're not doing homework because there's other stimuli competing for your attention, whether that's the friends that you're going and leaving the house for to hang out with your friends instead of trying to get their attention or other stimuli in the room like TVs or video games that make Maybe you don't want to go in when the kid's watching them and taking them away because that would be a power struggle. And those are preventing the child from engaging in the behaviors that you do want them to engage in. It's basically removing those competing stimuli. So you have a situation where there's minimal distractors or minimal competition to what you're trying to get done. And then getting that behavior to occur and slowly introducing those competing stimuli back in with the understanding of, as I introduce them back in, if they become the behavior instead of the behavior that I want, they can be removed again. Again, not necessarily, we're not advocating for any parenting style. We're just explaining the parenting styles and pros and cons of both.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:47

And I like that statement, which might allow us to move forward. I know you wanted to talk about empowerment. So yes, we might be saying the authoritative is sort of the preferred mode of parenting, but we're also saying you want to consider all the other styles outside of the negligent style for the most part in terms of their time and a place because there is a time and a place. And as you talk about commando parenting, again, somebody might have the connotation that you're just on this commando mode, shouting orders, that you're just on the authoritarian realm. But if you're removing competing stimuli that are going to serve as positive reinforcement, you're contriving positive reinforcement in a sense to be able to traipse slowly into the authoritative realm as you have an authoritarian stance.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:33

Yes, exactly. You're getting the behavior to occur. We have to do whatever we can to get the desired behavior to occur. And if we can get that desired behavior to occur, it will access reinforcement. And if it accesses reinforcement, it will increase. But if that desired behavior, we're trying all sorts of things to get the desired behavior to occur with as common language would call incentives and things like that, and it's just not occurring, then commando parenting from that model would be let's remove some of these things and have them start to earn it a little bit back.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:04

All right. So One of the collateral effects of finding your rhythm with parenting styles is going to be the idea of parent empowerment, right? Something we talk a lot about in ABA, especially most recently, whether we want to call it stimulus control transfer, whatever we want to deem it. It's no longer, we're the circuit riders in this sense. We should be providing suggestions, techniques, and strategies that not only work for us, but more importantly, begin to work for the parent such that they can derive reinforcement from those interactions and continue to apply certain strategies. Absolutely. And that means, I mean, that's probably one of the more important levels of treatment that we can arrive at in our efforts is to empower parents. Talk to us a little bit more about that concept.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:55

Yes, yes, absolutely. Because if an ABA behavior is a product of the environment, And typically speaking, the environment is going to be the stakeholders, whether it's the parents or the teachers or the people that are going to be interacting with the kids regularly. Then it's really important that we work on their behavior and their level of empowerment and their responses to situations. more than it is the kids. Because at the end of the day, they're the ones that make the decision of where they're going to take their kids, what they're going to do with their kids. And that's all going to be based on their level of comfort in those situations. I'm sure no parent ever wakes up the day after they have a child at one day old and says, you know what? I'm not going to take my kid anywhere. I'm not going to play soccer with my kid. I'm not going to take my child anywhere. to the store. I'm not going to take them to get haircuts. I'm not going to take them to the mall. No parent ever starts from that. But based on undesirable experiences and traumas that that parent has experienced based on either the kid or other people around in those environments, That will cause the parents to be much less likely to take this child out and about in these environments, which will then close in those walls so much more. So the more that we can empower that parent to either look at other people's judgment. Well, first of all, look at other people's judgment. Quick story time. One of the parents that used to come to my parent group, one of the first parent groups that I ran, a dad came there. and a dad whose daughter still actually is with us, I remember vividly he said, you know, I moved to San Diego like six years before I had my daughter. And we were in this apartment complex. And across the way in the apartment complex, there was these parents that the kid was always tantruming. And I just looked at these parents with so much judgment because I knew how to deal with the situation and I knew what they should be doing better. And then I had my daughter and I gained a whole new level of understanding for these parents and a whole new level of sympathy for these parents. And I think that's the first step of parents feeling empowered enough to understand that people are going to judge them and people are going to look at them and not holding strangers' opinions, not holding their opinions. level of parenting based on strangers' opinions. If somebody looks at you funny or wants to offer you a suggestion, that's not an indictment on your level of parenting. So that would be the first level of empowerment that I would say. Mike, anything you wanted to add before I move forward?

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:22

Yeah, so oftentimes, you and I have been doing this a fair amount of time, and I know, especially in the beginning of my career, ABA was very recipe oriented. This is what you do. And it's sort of a one size fits all. And what we're talking about today is giving your child's temperament and then your application of any given concept. parenting style or styles over time, developing now a certain attachment style with your child, that's going to call for a different recipe or approach every time. So one thing I know that you and I have been very grateful that we're learning over time is the idea that there isn't a one size fits all, but that one child might require a certain parenting style for a certain amount of time before you can get into that authoritative sweet spot. And another child might be much more calm or easy to deal with, to use those terms loosely, which then allows you to hit that sweet spot a little faster. So arriving at that empowerment, there's not one road.

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:23

No, there's not one road. It's every child's different and every parent's different as well.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:28

Sure. Sure. And circumstances are different. So we're talking about a lot of dynamic variables here.

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:34

Yeah. Circumstances are different. I will say that we do have a client that's recently, the parents recently been taking this client that you've worked with for probably five or six years out in the community on the trolley to the mall and things like that. And it's just so cool to see this parent finally being empowered to something that when you first started, there's no way this parent would have done that because she would have gotten all sorts of funny looks. She would have, you know, had people comment and people are, like I said, people are going to do what they're going to do, but it's how, as a parent, you take that situation and you can look at the person and be like, yeah, they just don't understand. I'm going to ignore them. Or you can allow those comments and things like that be kind of an indictment on your parenting. And even the people with the thickest skin, eventually it's probably going to wear on them. So because this child's behavior, this individual's behavior became... not um not so extreme that maybe there there will be a couple looks or things like that but not too many that the parents like okay i can deal with that i'm empowered to do that versus maybe if they're being assaultive or if somebody's hypothetically pulling hair or spitting or grabbing crotches or something like that in the environment at that point that parent does not feel empowered because they have to deal with that situation it's not something they can ignore and that can lead to a level of frustration

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:54

and and to your point there then so there It's not to say that this particular client's behavior is now perfect, that the child or the parent isn't addressing behavior in the community, but the empowerment means that they feel empowered. capable of managing not just their child's behavior, but their own escalation, as well as anybody else's commentary or escalation. So it's not, again, not a magic wand. This ABA thing wasn't like, okay, you do this and every time your child will stop yelling so that nobody looks at them. No, no, that's not the case at all. The empowerment lies in my sense of self-efficacy as a parent to manage my situation, my own responses and reactions, to be able to help my child with any given behavior that's going over the line here for whatever circumstance and then Beyond that, handle anybody else's judgment call. Again, a very tall order. I really respect parents who have achieved that level of empowerment, who are now opening up their child's lives and their environments to be much more enriched, to be able to experience a slew of experiences that are going to become important. For example, if you're in your teenage years and the idea that you're getting used to public transportation, the collateral possibilities of that are endless. and they're invaluable.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:16

And that you've got trust and your parents helping you learn these things. I mean, how else do you learn to ride public transportation with a bunch of people other than putting yourself in public transportation with a bunch of people? So, yeah, yeah, the empowerment, to your point, everything you were mentioning, it opens up the realm of possibilities in an invaluable way to be able to empower a parent to say, you know what, I'm ready. Let's go try this because if I don't try this, there's no way I can learn this in isolation. My child can't learn to be out in the community inside our home. We're going to have to hit the community at some point.

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:52

It's the difference between a DRA and a DRI. Like I say a lot, the commando parenting is a lot of DRIs, right? It's incompatible to... watch TV instead of doing homework if the TV isn't there, right? So a lot of parents create a lot of DRIs in the environment, whether it's commando parenting or not, saying that it's incompatible for you to pull another person's hair on the trolley if I'm not taking you on the trolley. That's a DRI. But if we're going to try to teach these skills where eventually this individual will be out in the community, we have to be focused more on the DRAs. And how do we give them some alternative behaviors to meet those needs, which everybody has, rather than just constantly hit them with DRIs. Another example, a parent in a different parent group, I remember they were talking about their child wanting to, this child had a lot of doctor's appointments and the transition away from the iPad to go to the doctor. So the child would be on the iPad in the waiting room. When they would go in the doctor's office, they would have to take the iPad away and that would be a difficult transition. And the parent was like, well, you know, my solution is just no iPad in the doctor's office. which I understand and that works, but that's never teaching the appropriate behavior of how to relinquish the iPad in the doctor's office. And so often we go to these DRIs, which restricts a lot of families' involvement in the community and the kids' ability to access the community and learn these other skills because we're almost preempting our escalation because we know that when... Something happens in the community with my child, either what they do is going to cause me to escalate or someone's reaction to what they do is going to cause me to escalate. And that can only be addressed when somebody feels empowered enough to say, you know what, I have enough control over this situation to where if my child's going to do what they're going to do, nobody's 100% predictable, but I'm empowered to deal with it or I'm empowered to deal with the people's reactions to that situation.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:49

And I love when you allude to that and you make that point so clearly oftentimes to parents is, yes, you have the right to remove that challenging stimulus or remove yourself from that challenging situation forevermore. But the moment you do, learning how to manage that challenging situation or stimulus, that opportunity is gone. So you have to confront, to use that word specifically, at some point, you have to confront what you deem as conflictive at some point. Now it means that you can confront or be authoritarian for a little while to feel like you've taught some prerequisite skills, that you've gained some requisite skills as a parent to be able to then confront the situation in a more authoritative manner, knowing that even out in the community, you do have a chance to set hard lines in order to protect yourself or your child, whether it is from danger or even judgment. You're out on the trolley. It's been a rough one. You've had to deal a lot with your child's behavior. And at some point, you can say, we tried today. And now I'm out of time and I'm out of energy. We're going to go home. But at least you tried. You were in that environment where the learning, which is sometimes gradual, often gradual, is happening despite people's reactions in the environment, despite your own escalation, learning how to manage that. Well, that's all part of the process.

SPEAKER_03: 1:20:09

Yeah, it's probably. And again, I'm not a parent, so I can't speak for this parent or any parent in particular. In fact, maybe we should reach out and have some of these parents on to explain it from their perspective. But my guess would The empowerment comes from when I need to be authoritarian, my child will listen. When I say no, you can't do that, my child will listen.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:28

And that might be by and large because I've spent so much time in the authoritative area explaining to them, letting them know that I'm on their side, building that trust that when I say no, it means no and it means no for a good reason. So you have every reason to be motivated to comply with me, literally comply with me. in that moment without the backtalk or the delay or again the car's coming you're in the middle of the street you need to get out of there

SPEAKER_03: 1:20:57

yeah authoritative collaborative it's the same thing with you know the the wardrobe right i've instead of saying no you can't wear this or not even caring what they wear you've sat down and had a discussion about what your needs are what their needs are how do we kind of meet in the middle that collaborative authoritative it's kind of the same thing i'm going to use those terms synonymously they seem very synonymous um We'll see what Pop

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:20

Pop says about

SPEAKER_03: 1:21:20

that. That's true. We'll have to get his full approval,

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:24

all right?

SPEAKER_03: 1:21:24

Should we maybe review the parenting styles, the pros and cons, and then what to use?

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:30

Sure. So we've got authoritarian parenting, what I say goes, and I'll let you break that one down.

SPEAKER_03: 1:21:37

Sure. So the pros are if it works, gets things done quickly, the time to use it would be probably immediate safety concerns? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:47

Okay, the authoritative parenting style. Well,

SPEAKER_03: 1:21:51

back for authoritarian. The cons would be doesn't lead to a lot of independence. The other person doesn't feel heard, and as a result, may result in a lot of excessive or extreme maladaptive behaviors. Feelings of depression are things that later manifest in some maladaptive behaviors. So those are some of the issues with

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:12

authoritarian. So then the authoritative now being... high demand, high response, which is where we're saying is the preferred mode of operation. You're listening. You're providing options. We're going to include collaborative parenting under this umbrella, which means that not only are you providing options to your child and explaining why those options are available as opposed to other options that aren't available, but you might be ready to listen to their suggestions and consider them even though you don't prefer them and say, okay, you know what? That might work this time to show you that I'm listening and And then next time, your suggestion may not account for time or other people or whatever it is. So there is an element of authoritarianism still in saying, I get to choose ultimately as the authority figure, but I'm giving you options. It's not just one way up the mountain. And furthermore, I'm going to allow you to collaborate to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_03: 1:23:08

Yes. Authoritative parenting is where you and me become we. That would be the analogy that I provide there. It's not you need to do it. It's not all about me. It's not all about the child. It's where we can come to some kind of agreement so that you understand that I'm on your team. And that's the big thing is a lot of these parents, you know, if we're talking about you need to do homework, well, a lot of times... You're doing it with them as a parent. So we're doing homework. Now you're doing homework. We're doing homework. So how are we going to do it? Whether that's me physically doing it or me

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:40

supporting you through it. So we got authoritarian, authoritative and collaborative. Let's step back and talk about commando under the authoritarian umbrella.

SPEAKER_03: 1:23:50

Yeah. Commando is just maybe a specific implementation style of authoritarian parenting where you've tried a lot of things and it just hasn't worked. And in commando parenting, Basically, everybody is on board. That's the big thing that you mentioned. That's one of the pros. Again, we're not advocating or detracting from any parenting style. One of the pros of Commando Parenting that could hopefully be used in any other parenting style is everybody is 100% on board with the program and available. Now, obviously not... Throughout all of the day, every day, not everyone can be available all of the time, but in commando parenting, that becomes the focus. So even if you're doing collaborative parenting, the more that both people can be involved and on board... the more you're going to be. Because even if you're trying to be collaborative with a, say mom's trying to be collaborative, but dad's trying to be authoritarian, that might not work too well. It might work well because parents can be different. But a lot of times that also breeds contention in relationships and things like that. Well, my husband does this or my wife does this. So everybody being on board and present, that's that commando parenting of removing all of the competing stimuli. And you're going to have to earn those back showing that you can perform the behaviors necessitated to earn them back.

SPEAKER_01: 1:25:09

So in theory, you could take a commando attitude to implementing collaborative parenting. Absolutely. Okay. I like that. I like that. And I like, again, I like the way these are, this is a continuum. It's not like it's one, this is the best one. This is the only thing you can do. And it's important to say that through the years and some of the research that's been done with the Bomberman model, it's to say that it applies across cultures, across nationalities, all around the world. And it's also important to say that while as people in the United States that might favor or even in our case, we're suggesting that the authoritative style is the best. If you look at other cultures... that are a little bit more high demand, a little bit more culturally traditional, you might find certain research in Asian families that the authoritarian model works a little bit better. You might go over to Europe and say some Spanish homes in Spain, that's why they're called Spanish, not to be redundant there, but that some of the permissive attitudes actually end up rearing children with better outcomes, and that has a lot to do with the cultural circumstances and the different environments people's judgment calls, how people are responding to certain behaviors, or how families are grouped together, how they correlate and congregate,

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:23

right? Sure. There's a lot of evolutionary value to it as well. Back in the day, you couldn't be a permissive parent. Otherwise, your child would get eaten by a lion. So you had to be authoritarian. So there's a lot of evolutionary value as well.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:36

So going way back to prehistoric times, the idea that if you're an indulgent or lenient parenting and you're going, hey, Johnny, Don't go outside the cave. That saber-toothed tiger is going to eat you. And Johnny's like, but I want to go outside the cave. And you're like, oh, that's fine. I don't want Johnny being mad at me. That's it. Johnny's gone. So nice segue into the permissive parenting or indulgent or lenient parenting, low demand, high response. So it's not to say that this is a useless style of parenting because you want to be highly responsive. Where this might get into trouble is when you pair it along with low demand.

SPEAKER_03: 1:27:12

And the benefits, the pros to this isn't does lead to a high level of independence. People are going to be able to interact with their environment much more than an authoritarian model of parenting would be because they're allowed to interact and they're allowed to make a lot of mistakes by themselves. The cons to this is going to be that The interactions that they have with you might not be replicated with other people in the environment, right? We're raising adults, not raising kids. So if people are expected to, if the child's developing the expectation that they can just do what they want and they come in contact with a boss or a teacher or somebody else who doesn't have that sort of management style, then they're going to have a lot of anxiety as a result of that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27:57

Now, the final one to review here, at least for today's episode, the I Thank you. sort of willfully at any point in time unless in terms of low responsiveness or demand it means they're being taken care of by somebody else who is of you know decent responsiveness and demandingness so this is the one parenting style that I can't necessarily find a good time or place for in terms of doing so willfully but it might occur in times of say things like postpartum depression or if a family is going through a fair amount of turmoil for whatever reason reason a parent is dealing dealing with mental health difficulties so again these are extraneous situations where now we don't recommend this there's no reason for us to recommend this but unfortunately does happen as part of this mix

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:00

sure or the Kubler-Ross five stages of grief or like you mentioned

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:04

the mental death in the family might lead to a little bit of distraction and distress could put a child in this realm for a little while

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:11

yeah I even see that with the permissive as well whether it's the guilt or just you know family saying well I've tried I've tried I everything, it's just not going to work. So, um, yeah, the neglectful parenting, I can't really think of a great example for the neglect of parenting or a pro for there's, there's a ton of cons.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:30

All right. Well, we've covered a lot of ground, extra long episode. We may cut this down into two. We'll have to make some decisions, but thank you for your attention on today's episode on parenting styles and

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:41

always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:45

ABA on Tap is recorded live and unfiltered. We're done for today. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. See you next time.