A Parent's Perspective

Super craft brew for this episode. Dan and Mike take time to interview a parent, Jess, with her own, very unique experience with ASD and ABA intervention. Jess is a sole-provider with two young children, her youngest on the spectrum. She lends her insight and experiences regarding sibling rivalry, managing extended family attitudes about disability and services, as well as making herself available for said services. Jess gives an honest account of her struggles and better yet, provides an encouraging message for parents given her outcomes.

Sip a nice and easy brew in this episode. Cheers to Jess and all hard-working, dedicated parents. Always analyze responsibly.

AND--if you are ready to enjoy the benefits of Magic Mind and boost your brain performance, please use the following link and use the discount code AOT to receive 20% off your purchase, and 56% off a subscription.
https://www.magicmind.com/aot  

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

Welcome to ABA on Tap, where our goal is to find the best recipe to brew the smoothest, coldest, and best tasting ABA around. I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio, and join us on our journey as we look back into the ingredients to form the best concoction of ABA on tap. In this podcast, we will talk about the history of the ABA brew, how much to consume to achieve the optimum buzz while not getting too drunk, and the recommended pairings to bring to the table. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_05: 0:52

All right, all right. Welcome back to another installment of ABA on Tap. I am your very grateful co-host, Mike Rubio, along with Daniel Lowry. Mr. Dan, how are you?

SPEAKER_03: 1:03

Doing great. Excited for today's episode.

SPEAKER_05: 1:05

Moving right along with the parenting theme, we've covered a couple of parenting articles with some great pointers, some great food for thought, great discussion, and now we've got a parent in vivo in our studio here to discuss her experience with ABA Services. Dan, maybe you want to give a little bit of a longer intro. You were gracious enough to set this up for us. I'm very excited about the conversation. I think we're going to learn a lot. Tell us a little bit more about your thoughts here.

SPEAKER_03: 1:32

Yeah, well, we are very fortunate and very grateful to have Jess here joining us today. Somebody that we thought could give a good perspective from kind of the other side of the service delivery sphere. You know, we deliver the services, but it's really hard for us to see on the other side kind of what it's like. And after doing, what, 10 years of parent groups, as much as we can kind of relate the services and get parental perspective, I think we've learned as much from them as they've learned from us. So continuing that trend. Thank you so much, Jess, for joining us today. We're very pleased to have have you on board.

SPEAKER_00: 2:06

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03: 2:08

All right. Well, let's

SPEAKER_05: 2:09

kick right in. Let's start at the beginning. Yes. So what we really want to capture today is your parenting experience from, I guess, your initial concerns through the diagnostic process, through then acquiring services and receiving services and getting comfortable with the idea of not just ABA services, but perhaps other services that you were also benefiting from. And then bringing us to the current day, which I think is very very exciting. We might be interrupted a little bit. We do have live children in the studio that are occupied. And we've had this once before with my daughter napping as we recorded. So if we take a couple pauses or we hear some nice, pure voices in the background, we'll deal with it like parents. So yeah, let's start from the beginning. Tell us a little bit about, from the start, what you noticed that concerned you, what brought you to the idea of, hey, I may need some help. Let me have somebody take a look here and tell me what's going on.

SPEAKER_00: 3:12

Okay, so my son's name is Nicholas. He will be seven in June. When he was a baby, he was hitting all of his milestones. He was walking at like 10 months. And then right as he got to his first birthday, I just noticed like he wasn't really interested in like playing with other people. If he had his toys, he would always turn his back to everybody. And then I noticed that he wasn't answering to his name. So... I waited just a couple weeks and then kind of was asking other people and then Other people with kids would say, well, boys are different. They learn at a different pace than girls. Oh,

SPEAKER_03: 3:53

that is so true. Yes. It doesn't stop.

SPEAKER_00: 3:56

Yeah, and with a boy and a girl, I'm seeing it. But I remember giving it a couple weeks, and then I called the pediatrician. So at the time, I didn't know anything about autism. I didn't even know what I was thinking was autism. So when I had called the pediatrician's office, they asked me to come in that afternoon with Nick. And I thought, I must have said something, because we don't get same-day appointments ever. So that was my first thought of, okay, something is going on. So when we went in there, we spoke with the pediatrician. She asked if I had ever heard of the M chart, which I said no. We did a series of questions, and Nick was right under the halfway point. And I remember the pediatrician had given me some numbers and some things to follow up with, and I did not make it out of that office without crying because I was like, you just threw this on me like a ton of bricks, and now I have to do all these follow-ups. So that was kind of the starting point, and then we started to receive services. And then when he got his... Assessment done. He was diagnosed actually the day before his second birthday.

SPEAKER_03: 5:03

So when you say you didn't make it out of the office crying, was it out of overwhelming feeling overwhelmed about all of the visits that you had or was it that, oh, wow, something may be different actually? It

SPEAKER_00: 5:15

was my first thought of, one, something's wrong. Two, I don't know anything about autism other than I know it's a disability, but I don't know anything. And three, how am I going to do this? Like, what am I supposed to do? And then I kind of felt like it was kind of brought to me a little not so sincerely of like... this is what we're thinking, this is what it could be, and now you need to follow up with all of these things. So it was hard from the beginning, I feel like.

SPEAKER_03: 5:45

In my parent groups a lot, I'll show the Welcome to Holland poem, and it just talks about somebody who planned a trip to Italy and then goes to Holland, and then that just difference, and not that it's better or worse, it's just a different experience. So it sounds like that's kind of what you're talking about, that you were expecting one thing, and then it's just like everything was thrown on you, and it's like, holy crap, what do I do? That's a lot.

SPEAKER_05: 6:06

Do you think there was a different way that pediatrician could have approached it in looking back now knowing that it was a lot for you to manage, understandably so? Do you look back and understand why it had to happen so quickly or so suddenly? Or do you think there's a different way that pediatricians might approach it? If you could do it again... Would you change it?

SPEAKER_00: 6:28

I think definitely they have their protocol of they receive keywords or they receive information of behaviors and things that people or parents are telling them. And for me, I was saying these things that describe autism, which I had never heard of. So I think, of course, they went through their protocol that day. But I think delivering the news to somebody... it's almost like if you receive like bad news and you're just like, oh, I was feeling sick, but now you're telling me I have cancer, you know, something like where I think it should have been handled maybe a little more with caution. just a little nicer, and not so, this is what we're seeing, and this is what we think it is, and now you have to do all these follow-ups, and it was overwhelming from the beginning.

SPEAKER_03: 7:12

Do you feel like it was done too clinically? Just like, oh, this is what the test showed, and this is what he has by, that kind of thing? I

SPEAKER_00: 7:19

feel like that's a lot of what it was, and I understand they have their job, and they see so many people a day, but... I don't know. For me, just trying to take that into consideration, I feel like that should have been done. But that was the starting point. And then after that, he had his assessments. And then he did receive the services. Looking back, I wish it was handled a little bit different, but the services he received were amazing, and I think the early intervention really saved him. That's

SPEAKER_03: 7:53

tricky, because even in our field, at the end of the day, it's a job for us, right? So it's not our life that is necessarily changed, but the client or the patient's life is changed significantly, and that definitely should be dealt with that level of sincerity and empathy. I think that's super important.

SPEAKER_05: 8:12

And it's such a hard balance to strike, I imagine. You make a good point. There's a protocol. They want to do this quickly. And the more quickly they do it, the more they're going to throw at a parent who's now concerned about what they've seen and what they're being told. So that's certainly a hard balance to strike. Let's rewind a little bit. You alluded to the subsequent events. So you leave the pediatrician's office. There's all these follow-ups. What happens next after that initial visit?

SPEAKER_00: 8:40

So we did a follow-up with one of the doctors. I can't remember her name, but we just had done a follow-up, and at 18 months, they were ready to actually diagnose him, and I was in severe denial, and I was like, not my baby. He's going to grow out of this. So they set up another appointment for when he was about to be two, and they did the diagnosis then. So... I think the first probably year, I was crying all the time. I was sad all the time. And I was like, how did this happen to my baby? It's just, I don't know, a lot. But I think really the early intervention, we got that. We received the ABA services. I think he started out around four days a week. And we had that for a while. It was four or five. We had that for a while. The ABA therapists were amazing with him and consistent with him. So it was a good, I feel, overall experience.

SPEAKER_03: 9:45

So you mentioned, I hate to bring it back to the negative piece, but how emotionally draining it was for you. I know, Mike, that's one thing that you're looking at pursuing is the behavioral pediatrics piece, which we've talked about on podcast about trying to figure out if there's some ways that we can preempt that diagnosis because that diagnosis does carry a lot of weight, which we've talked about. One thing that I remember us talking about specifically in the parent groups, which we'll get to later, but in general was the level that he was diagnosed at. I remember specifically, I forget what level he was, and you can or cannot talk about it if you want, but it was a more severe level than you thought he was, and that was something that was really traumatizing to you, and I was like, don't worry about it, but... I'm not a parent. So I don't know, Jess, if you wouldn't mind talking a little bit about that experience.

SPEAKER_00: 10:35

So at 18 months and at two years old, you don't develop skills enough to master a level really of play or building or, you know, really doing any of these levels of anything. So when he was 18 months, when they did the first assessment and then when he was two years old, it was more of like a play session for like five hours for him. And they put him at like a level two and it was like a borderline three and I thought this is not right and I remember calling the doctor back and I was having a whole conversation with her and she said I remember her asking me what would this change if the diagnosis on paper was a level one versus a level two or a level three and I said because I know this is not right and I know this so she said I Well, we could leave it at the level that it's at and the diagnosis that it's at, and he would still get the same services as he would if he were a level one at two years old. So I said, okay, fine. I know it's not ripe and I'll leave it alone for now, but it's not right. And I know that. So yeah, that was hard. I

SPEAKER_03: 11:45

remember that. And I remember, you know, you being really upset. And I was, my advice was always, you know, it's just somebody's subjective opinion. At the end of the day for us, the diagnosis and the level only gives us an insurance billing code to be able to take some financial responsibility off of your hand. So whether he's level one, level two, level three, we're just going to focus on the behaviors. But again, I imagine as a parent, Having somebody judge, for lack of a better term, qualify your child as a certain thing, yeah, I imagine that's got to be kind of tricky, especially, like you said, I remember you specifically being like, he'll do these things at home just because he didn't do them with this person. He'll do them, watch, I'll have him do them right now. And I imagine that can be when somebody, a professional, is judging or classifying your child in a way that you feel like is inaccurate. That can be a lot.

SPEAKER_05: 12:33

Well, the generality piece... That speaks volumes, right? So I can't tell you how often being involved in early intervention, I have this discussion with parents and saying, look, they look great and everything that I want to see here in your home is happening and you're seeing it too. Now they're going to have to go into some stranger's office with some stranger. And if... they clam up or withdraw at all, then what that person sees is going to have to reflect that observation. And that clinician then might end up with what we call a diagnostic substitution and saying, maybe I'm not sure if this child has something, but if we don't put this label, if these professionals don't have this diagnostic code, then this child doesn't get services. And that's very specific to ABA, for sure. We have to go through that. So I can imagine that you've got a clinician who's trying to be super precise, and they're talking about what they observed, and then you as their parent, you're going, no, no, no, he can do that. He can do that. And then luckily, to Dan's point, I think that ABA does a good job of not worrying so much about the diagnosis, but the actual behaviors and the skills that need to be acquired to then make that individual difference. Sure. Did you know immediately in seeing the more extensive play sessions or evaluations, as soon as you started seeing your son interact or not interact, were you pretty sure that you were going to end up with a diagnosis, or how did that work out?

SPEAKER_00: 14:00

Yeah, definitely. But I was in I'm telling you, I was in such denial. But in the back of my head, I'm like, I know my kid, you know, even when my kids were born. I'm like, I feel like I know my kids. So in the back of my head, I'm like, he's going to get there. But for right now, yeah, for right now, I know. I mean, I have high hopes for my kids. So. I just feel like from point A to point B, it's usually like a straight line. And for Nick, it's kind of a zigzag line, but we still get there.

SPEAKER_03: 14:28

Nice. So touching base on that denial piece, I think our goal is kind of twofold from this podcast. One is to just give the opportunity for parents who are in a similar situation to what you are in, the perspective and also the feelings of, oh, wow, yeah, I kind of feel like that. And I maybe feel like it's uncertain or... Hopeless or whatever. In addition, also get it from a parent perspective, how we can improve the field of ABA. It's kind of our two goals on ABA on tap. So for that denial piece, you mentioned you were in denial. Was there a time where you didn't want to get services because you're like, no, my kid's fine? If I get services, then it's more of a thing? Or were you just immediately gung-ho like, let's get services?

SPEAKER_00: 15:11

I think once you get to that point of realization, like maybe more than three people are telling you there's a problem, then there's probably a problem. So for me it was like, okay, we're just going to get on the horse and go. That's just what it's going to have to be. So I did see changes within Nick, and I feel like it was kind of like waves of his behavior, and I feel like for a long while we got to a really good place.

SPEAKER_03: 15:39

So you mentioned it was when other people were kind of bringing it up and kind of confirming that piece that you just kind of stepped in. I see that with some of the families that we work with where we do have some family members that are in denial, and one parent's like, okay, well, it is what it is. Let's just get the services, and the other parent isn't. How did you actually go about getting ABA? How did you find out about it? How did you actually call to get the assessment?

SPEAKER_00: 16:04

Okay. Okay. We got set up, and we started receiving the ABA. I think it was around four days a week, just because at that time, Nick's behavior was a real problem. Yeah, his tantrums were about 45 minutes. I was going to

SPEAKER_05: 16:36

say, describe that. When you say behavior, let's describe that.

SPEAKER_03: 16:39

Which is crazy, because he's come into this room about four times, and no one would have noticed. Talk about an improvement in behavior. Nobody's heard it. Let's go back to old school Nick, who everybody would have known if he interrupted Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 16:53

definitely. His baseline was definitely not in a good place before services. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 17:03

So did you get your services through Regional Center or through your insurance? Do you remember in the beginning?

SPEAKER_00: 17:09

Um, I think we had, now it's hard to remember, but I think we started with regional and then we went through my employer. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_05: 17:18

Early start first, early intervention

SPEAKER_00: 17:20

first. Early intervention. Yeah. Yeah. And then he, he like graduated out of that and then we went, to my insurance, I believe.

SPEAKER_05: 17:27

Tell us about that very first day. You're all set up. You've been doing all this groundwork. You've been asked the same questions over and over again about his sleeping habits and his eating habits and does he poo and pee and what color is it and all those things that people ask you a million things about. And you finally get to that day and somebody knocks on your door because it's home-based service, I imagine, to start. Tell us your impression. What do you remember about that very first day? Was there a sense of relief? Honestly, was there a sense of greater complication at first? Like, holy cow, I can't believe this is going to be happening now. Four days a week in my home for the next however many months. What were your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00: 18:11

I remember the lady we had who came in. She was really nice. She had explained everything. And it was a lot. That's funny because it was a lot of the same questions. Does he jump? Does he run? Does he do all these things?

SPEAKER_05: 18:26

Does he hop on one foot? Does he walk backwards for 10 feet? Because you've been measuring that as a parent. You've got your measuring tape out all the time.

SPEAKER_00: 18:32

Right. How coordinated is he? But... I will say there was a sense of relief because I felt like, okay, you know, maybe we're finally kind of getting into like this direction of getting these services and then things will get easier. And I feel like we really went to a point of like things were bad and then people were coming in who, you know, don't, I never have people come over anyway. It's just, you know, myself and my kids. And then all of a sudden people are coming in, they're doing these assessments, they're checking everything out. And then I saw like a a wave of bad behavior from Nick. And I think it was just a change of, okay, now there's people here, now they're here for a period of time, they wanna come play, and I don't wanna play with these people. I just think it was a whole lot of stuff. And for a little bit, it became harder, and then we had a lot of kicking, we had spitting, we had biting going on for a little bit, and then eventually things got better. and then we had the waves of up and down a little bit and then kind of like okay use your words to say just a simple no thank you and that will be fine and then we'll all stop so I think getting there was a challenge too and realizing like once he started making sounds and then he made turn those sounds into words and then putting those words together and he realized like I can just say no you know stop like it became easier like I have I have a voice it finally became easier so yeah It was challenging.

SPEAKER_05: 20:05

These darn adults, I'm kicking, screaming, and they just don't get it that I'm saying no. I've got to say no, right? Was there ever a point where because it was harder at first and easier that you were like, no, this isn't going to work? I mean, what was that balancing point or that tipping point where you saw enough of a change or you felt enough empowerment with the service that you said, oh, okay, I get it. I see why it got worse before it got better. I

SPEAKER_00: 20:30

feel like from the beginning I had done enough of my due diligence to be like, Like, I'm going to research this and I'm going to find out, like, if this is your title, what is your job and what are you supposed to be doing? And when you give me information, what am I supposed to know and what am I supposed to read up on? So by the time we started services, I felt like, okay, it's going to be tough. I know that. And it's already hard. And if I'm going through hell now and we're going to get over this, then I'm just going to look forward to getting over this, you know, hill of hell with him right now and then... So I was optimistic and it was hard, but we're in a really good space now.

SPEAKER_03: 21:08

Yeah, we call that the extinction burst. As I'm sure you know now that we actually see that a lot with our clients as we come in and we make suggestions or things like that and the behavior actually gets worse before it gets better. And I can see how that would be really counterintuitive for a parent to be like, you're telling me to do this and I'm doing this and now it's getting worse. You said from your research that helped you kind of trust the process. Was there... I mean, because you're putting a lot of trust into somebody you don't even know. Were there times where you were like, you know what, no, this, no. Or did it smooth out quickly enough where it was much easier? I

SPEAKER_00: 21:46

think overall, we had such a great experience that even if we had a bad day, it was still good. I only remember maybe one person or two people that maybe Nick didn't totally connect with. But overall, I feel that Everything was amazing for him.

SPEAKER_03: 22:05

Nice. Do you feel that, so I forget what I was going to ask about the, oh, do you feel that, so Mike, you always talk about ABA is no way to parent. So in the beginning, were there suggestions that were being made by either the case manager, the therapist, whatever, that were just totally counterintuitive to the way that you would parent or things where you were like, wait, what? You want me to do this in this situation? Or did it all seem pretty intuitive?

SPEAKER_00: 22:33

I think it just made sense to me. I think for myself, I had to really implement these big changes in my life because before services, I knew we were going to get it, but I didn't know that I should be doing X amount of things or doing things a certain way for him. Your kids really do teach you patience and teach you to kind of take a step back and be like, okay, this is the 10th time, but... We're going to get there. I

SPEAKER_05: 23:03

like that. The kids teach you patience for sure. Now, whether or not you choose to learn as a parent, that's a

SPEAKER_03: 23:08

whole different discussion. They're going to make you be patient, right? Because if you tell them nine times and they don't do it, well, you've got to tell them a tenth time, right?

SPEAKER_05: 23:14

Exactly. How many times did your mom have to ask you to pick up your socks and put them in the hamper before you actually did, right? About 10,000 times. Yeah. As you were going through all these suggestions, you're seeing that it works. One thing that I think a lot of families run into is now by extension, whether it's grandma or aunt or uncle are now like, no, no, malarkey. This child's just misbehaving. This child's just being difficult. Did you face any of that with any of your family members or friends? And what's your best advice on managing that? Because that can be hard. That can be discouraging.

SPEAKER_00: 23:48

I would say one thing, and I didn't do this until later, and I feel like we had so many fights about it but I will say if your family is watching your kids or they have any sort of input or being around your kids in their environment give them the resources as well and let them speak to also the people who are helping your kids because I feel like that can be really insightful it's like you don't want to hear from the person who's in your family sometimes it's better to hear from an outside person That was, I feel like, a mistake I made because I was like, well, we're going to do all these things. I worked at night, so I was home during the day when all of these things were happening. But then there was those times where if I had a meeting or I had somewhere to be, I couldn't take my kids. Then it was like, well, and then you kind of have, depending, you know, who's there, maybe that old school approach of, like, smack your kid or, you know, spank your kids. And then that's a whole other discussion. I do, every now and then, will... spank my kids and Nick spit in my face and I did spank him for that because that's definitely not okay. But that's never my first go-to when I'm handling my kids.

SPEAKER_03: 25:01

I don't remember which caregiver it was at the time, but I remember at a parent group that we were at, you being like, yeah, my... I don't remember who it was. Told me or suggested or was judging the way that I parent and I imagine that can just be incredibly frustrating to have other people who are not there all the time think that like, and almost like make you feel like, wow, all the time that I'm doing is wasted on this time. Oh, you know better? So it almost devalues all the time you're spending on the ABA services and stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 25:32

Yeah, and you know who is the most opinionated? The people without kids will tell you all the things you're doing wrong, and I find it hilarious. It's so funny to me, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 25:42

So now fast forwarding until today, and then we'll fast forward or we'll rewind back and ask more questions. You don't strike me as a very mild-mannered individual. You don't strike me as an idealist. I told you so, but what's been your vindication now with kind of seeing where your son is at and going back to some of those family members and maybe hearkening back to the, hey, yeah, I remember when you said it was just misbehavior. And again, I think that everybody's got good intent, right? But how that comes out or how you feel judged can be very difficult. So have you had a chance to circle back? Have you had any family members or friends that were maybe mistaken in their initial assessment come to you and say, hey, we were wrong?

SPEAKER_03: 26:21

And Jess is a much better person than I am because I'm big on the I told you so's. Go ahead, Jess.

SPEAKER_00: 26:28

I don't typically say it in those words, but I have had conversations with my family. I do have two older sisters. One of them does have kids who are not on the spectrum, but we have had conversations about Nick and his behavior, and I will always come back to how the early intervention really, I feel, saved Nick and even the the parent stuff, the parent classes that I was in, I feel like it saved me in a way, too, because it was so stressful during that time. So, yeah. I haven't said I told you so in those words. That's why

SPEAKER_03: 27:05

you're a much better person than I am, Jess, because I would have added... But you

SPEAKER_05: 27:08

feel it. You feel it inside. That's the important part. Vindication, right? How long were you involved in direct services?

SPEAKER_00: 27:19

Three years.

SPEAKER_05: 27:20

Three years. OK. That's a good progression. Not too long, not too short. That's a good amount of time.

SPEAKER_03: 27:26

You bring up the parent groups. And I'll circle back to those later. But it's funny you talk about the stress. And I remember there was a core group in your parent group of three ladies. And it would kind of rotate each week because we would do it every Friday. And each week, it was like one parent was kind of on the verge of losing their coconuts from the kid. And the other parents would be like, it's OK. It's OK. I was there. And then next week, it would be a different parent that was ready to Strangle their kid. It was a great experience.

SPEAKER_00: 27:53

Stressful, but looking back, we can laugh now.

SPEAKER_03: 27:56

Absolutely. And we'll talk about the importance of parents supporting other parents, which, again, thank you so much, Jess, for coming because, again, you're paying it forward. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 28:06

Again, we can't mention this enough now. True testament, there are two live children in this studio right now, whether you hear them or not, because that's how well-behaved they are. They're occupied. They're taking care of each other, maybe tattling on each other just a little bit, which is very, very appropriate.

SPEAKER_03: 28:22

So yeah, we're doing well. She was concerned that her son wasn't talking enough, and now maybe concerned about some of the stuff he's saying, right? You know, care for what you wish for.

SPEAKER_05: 28:31

From no speech to possible expletives. That's a success story, I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_03: 28:35

Absolutely. You mentioned, Jess, the judgment that you felt like you got from non-parents. I remember I were in dad's groups as well, and one of the dads in my dad's group who has a daughter, I just remember this story so vividly because he was like, yeah, they had a townhouse at the time, and this was before he had his daughter. And he said there was another kid on the townhouse across the street that the kid would just be, you know, wilding out, for lack of a better term, just, you know, throwing tantrums. And he was like, I just judged this parent. And I was just like, you don't know what you're doing let me come over there and show you and then when he had his daughter who ended up being on the ASD spectrum he's like yeah looking back like I realized I had no idea what I was talking about and I have so much more compassion for this parent so it's it's interesting how much you know people that have kids are able to be more compassionate for those other people that have kids which relates to our services but Because a lot of the therapists and even supervisors, case managers, don't have kids. So I think that's an important thing that It's weird to take advice about how to raise kids from people that don't have kids sometimes.

SPEAKER_05: 29:41

I mean, we could put it in a more negative context, right? The idea that misery loves company. I'm not the only one. Tell us about that, though. What was that synergy like in those parent groups with Dan's description that you're sort of trading off who's doing well, who isn't doing well? How does that work for you? Is it helpful to hear that somebody else is in a similar struggle? How helpful is it when you're in that struggle and suddenly they're encouraging you and maybe it feels like it's a little bit too much pepper, rah, rah, and you're like, hey, come on now. I'm going through it. Let me have it, right? How does that work? How helpful is that?

SPEAKER_00: 30:16

I think having those meetings once a week with the other moms and then always having the same moms coming in, I feel like I developed a pretty amazing relationship with them. And I feel like we had kids about the same ages, so I think they were only within a couple months of each other. So one, that really helped. Two, I feel like if my kid was kind of going through something that was frustrating, then they had already... they had already been going through it, or at some point we're going to talk about it again because they're going to also be going through it. So I think it all worked. It worked well.

SPEAKER_05: 30:57

Sometimes the individual difference, or that can be a basis for comparison that isn't comfortable sometimes. Did you ever find yourself in that spot where it was like, oh, my kid's not doing that yet? How do you reconcile that?

SPEAKER_00: 31:09

Yeah, I think for me I was always hopeful, like, okay... They're all around the same ages, and we're going to get there. So I just always felt like through therapy and just kind of like, okay, kid, keep going. He'll get there. He'll reach his milestones. I feel like it's always one day at a time, and sometimes during that time for me it was just one minute at a time because it was just so stressful, and I feel like just so uncertain at the time. So we've come a long way.

UNKNOWN: 31:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 31:41

Absolutely. You mentioned that sometimes, too, having your parent or your family tell you to do something, or you telling your family to do something, they're just like, nope, which is the whole reason that we started Dad's Groups, because so many moms would come. We did parent groups. We weren't gender-specific or role-specific, but it would almost always be moms, as was the parent group that you were in, Jess, and so many of the moms were like, I told my husband, and they won't listen. You've got to tell them, because... I won't listen. They won't listen if I tell them. So I think there's a lot of other parents that support that thing that for whatever reason, even in my current relationship, there's a shutdown. If I tell... my girlfriend to do anything, it's just going to automatically be a no, no matter what happens. There's just like a shutdown amongst significant others or things like that about implementing strategies and things of that nature.

SPEAKER_05: 32:32

What do you think made the change for your family? So a lot of times, even as maybe professionals, we might inadvertently make the mistake that everybody's going to implement the strategy the same way. And what we end up seeing is that you know, I mean, I've actually, I've gotten a lot better. I feel like looking at, you know, family and saying, hey, mom, you're going to do it this way. Dad, you're going to do it this way. Grandma, you're going to try to do it this way because you know that, you know, what do I know? I'm some guy that isn't a grandparent yet. So, you know, I have trouble with grandparents because they're set in their ways a little bit more. Do you, was it ultimately replicating what you were doing that worked for your family? Did they find their own groove? What do you think worked for them finally to go, oh, okay, we understand what's happening and now we can fit into the situation as opposed to be sort of countering sometimes or being oppositional?

SPEAKER_00: 33:24

I feel like it was initially really frustrating for my family because Nick's behaviors were so bad at the time. But I also think... I kind of had the advantage because when I was working night shift, my kids were sleeping when I left, so there was only another adult there sleeping with them, and then I would be back home, so they didn't really know I was gone in a way. So I feel like during the worst of the worst, I kind of had Nick all the time, and I was the one taking him to all of his therapy. And I feel like at that point where things have kind of settled is when my family has stepped in more. So although it is frustrating for them, he's more mellow now, and they can kind of get like a little bit more stern with him and that that's kind of what works for Nick and they don't they don't implement so many things I mean um in regards to like the the ABA sessions they weren't as involved at that point um so I think now it's just being a little bit more stern and you know kind of that works for Nick

SPEAKER_03: 34:25

so with that how much would you say was them understanding the strategies that you wanted them to implement when they were watching your son versus you coming to grips with the fact of, you know what, they might not do it the way I want to do it. I'm just going to tolerate it because in the beginning, you know, a lot of parents are like, well, this is what they said in ABA and everybody has to do it, which ideally would be the case. But like Mike said, and you've kind of alluded to that might not happen. So how much would you say is you being more patient and how much would you say is them changing what they do?

SPEAKER_00: 34:56

I would say definitely if there's one, a lack of understanding and a lack of resources or just that knowledge for the family, they're going to feel like, well, who are you to tell me what I should be doing? You know, this is your kid and these are your sessions. You do those things and I'll kind of do my own thing. And I feel like that old school style of like having your parents around and helping, they're not interested. You know, when I would try to give my mom a schedule or be like, this is what we're doing. She's like, okay. And I know damn well they're not following a schedule. They're not doing that. I think it's harder for... It's not

SPEAKER_03: 35:32

part of the grandparents' job description anyway.

SPEAKER_00: 35:34

Exactly. I think that's what it is. I feel like people who are maybe less involved, but they're around, I feel like it's not... At least in my experience, it's more of like, we'll be here and we'll play with him, but that's not my thing either. That was kind of my experience.

SPEAKER_03: 35:54

One thing that you mentioned... you mentioned a little bit earlier, was that one kind of, we would call it pivotal behavior, but breakthrough was when Nick was able to say no. And other... Did you want to say no? You want to say

SPEAKER_05: 36:09

no?

SPEAKER_03: 36:11

Yes. Yes or no? Almost a guest appearance. Yes, we have a guest appearance here. You

SPEAKER_05: 36:19

want

SPEAKER_03: 36:19

to talk?

UNKNOWN: 36:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 36:23

Oh, he said no. Perfect.

SPEAKER_05: 36:25

There you go.

SPEAKER_03: 36:26

Okay. Historically, and this is something that we've always prided ourselves on, is the assent piece or acknowledging. Historically, ABA was very compliance-oriented in that if a kid says no and we give an instruction, well, we've got to follow through with the instruction because we gave the instruction. Or something that, you know, Mike, we've always talked about for a while and something we're a huge proponent of is if the individual says no... And we're going to honor that no. I guess two questions that I have for you, Jess. One is, did you ever have the more compliance-based ABA where it was like, no, we say you have to do it? And then, well, that's the first question, and then I'll get to the second one.

SPEAKER_00: 37:04

I think for me, I really appreciated the fact that there was always an option. So when we had the ABA therapist come, I feel like it was a little more relaxed in the sense of like, well, if you say no, I can still give you an option or I can just provide you with an option. So if we're getting dressed, I can hold up two pairs of pants and you can choose. And that's actually the style that I have for Nick. And that's what he chose. I had a pair of jeans for him set to go today and he chose his pajamas, which... I don't like it, but I'm not going to argue with it. As long as you're decent, you look okay when we're going out, who cares if you're in your pajamas? You didn't show

SPEAKER_03: 37:44

him the dress code for the podcast? Our very strict tuxedo dress code only, Jess?

SPEAKER_05: 37:50

We have to capture this moment here. I need to rewind this. This is like a highlight moment. Here's a parent saying... I gave him choice of pants. He picked the pajama pants. We went with it. That's ABA

SPEAKER_03: 38:02

success right there. You had to do that with your daughter and was it the princess costume or whatever?

SPEAKER_05: 38:07

Yes, exactly. So you come to the point where it's like, okay, he's wearing pants. Yes, and it's not the pants I want him to wear, but the pants are on.

SPEAKER_03: 38:16

Pick your battles kind of thing, right? Pick your battles, yeah. I remember that. That was just getting him to wear any pants was a battle.

SPEAKER_00: 38:24

And I love the button up and he wore it. not put a button up on anymore, and I'm like...

SPEAKER_05: 38:30

What do you think you spared yourself in terms of not forcing the issue in those moments? Because it would be very reasonable for any parent to say, no, I'm telling you, you're not wearing your pajamas outside of this house, and then suddenly you're tied up and arguing with a three-year-old. Exactly,

SPEAKER_00: 38:47

and that's the reason why. If it's not that serious, I'm just not going to worry about it. If I'm asking you to take a bath, and you took a bath, and you're clean... then who cares if you're wearing the red pants or the blue pants, like I don't really care actually. So as long as you're dressed and we're okay to go out, I'm not going to stand here for 20 minutes and try to tell you to do this. And now we're running late because we had a fight about a pair of pants. Like just saying it, I feel like just sounds silly. So I don't really care that much. Well, it

SPEAKER_03: 39:17

always sounds silly when you step outside yourself, right? But when you're in the moment, and this is even as an RBT, like we said these contingencies, right? These first thens. Remember, I've talked about waiting an hour and a half for a kid to eat a strawberry. Seems ridiculous now when I say that. But when you're in the moment, you're like, no, I've said this and they have to follow through, right? It's... It's something to always consider, to always be in the best mental state. So transitioning to that real quickly. That was nicely done, sir. What do you do, Mike, to always stay in the best mental state? And something that our friend Jess, who... probably operated for, what, three years on three hours of sleep a day, may have well benefited from. I

SPEAKER_05: 39:57

don't know if this is magical enough to help your mind work with insufficient sleep. However, I do want to talk about a little routine that I've adapted for over a year now. I'm really glad to have found them and that they found us. But as a parent, things get very busy. Things get very tense. You've got work. You've got drop-off, pickup, transportation. You've got projects. that you're doing alongside. Here we are sitting on a Sunday afternoon doing a little bit of extra work along with each other, and that can be very, very mentally draining. So the idea that you might need something in addition to your cup of coffee to keep you energized, to keep you in a good mental flow state, that's where this comes in. So what I'm talking about is Magic Mind. And what I like to talk about with Magic Mind are the very simple ingredients, even though they may not be simple to pronounce. Oh, man. So I'm going to tap into my friend Dan here. who knows all about these simple ingredients. And Dan, you're gonna tell us what, Frisfatidylserine does.

SPEAKER_03: 40:58

One more time, what was that one?

SPEAKER_05: 40:59

Frisfatidylserine.

SPEAKER_03: 41:01

Well, that's a fatty substance that protects the nerve cells in your brain and enables them to communicate with each other. So it's a really good thing to include as people age a little bit to make sure that you're preventing the memory loss, mental decline, and boosting memory, mood, and concentration.

SPEAKER_05: 41:18

All right, so what if I throw something like citicoline at you? What are you going to tell me about that?

SPEAKER_03: 41:22

With citicoline, what citicoline does is that's more designed to help then repair cells, improve retinal function, and neural conduction.

SPEAKER_05: 41:32

Wow. And then you throw in something for energy like ceremonial matcha.

SPEAKER_03: 41:36

And that's more to protect against heart disease by lowering oxidative stress and inflammation. So that's more of a stress release. All right.

SPEAKER_05: 41:43

So nice, simple ingredients, although maybe difficult to pronounce. Yes. You're getting clean, pure mental energy here. So... To boost your brain performance, your memory, your mental acuity, your alertness, your awareness, add Magic Mind to your day today. Simply use the link in our episode description or go to www.magicmind.com slash capital A, capital O, capital T. That's for ABA on tap. They've given us a new code. Once again, that's www.magicmind.com slash capital A, capital O, capital T. Use the discount code in all caps, AOT, to receive 20% off your purchase and 56% off a subscription. Rediscover your mental power and endurance. Shake, breathe, drink Magic Mind. Thanks.

SPEAKER_03: 42:36

Right, getting back to it. So as a parent who's been through the whole rigmarole, for lack of a better term, in terms of that empowerment piece, you said that you felt like it jived well with your kids, honoring no and things like that. Is there anything, let's say you're talking to Jess of, what, five years ago when they first started to get therapy, or just a parent who's just got the diagnosis and now starting ABA, any kind of suggestions or words to the wise you would give in terms of, things to look out for when your therapist or case managers are asking you to do things or things to look for? I

SPEAKER_00: 43:13

would say one, it's hard, it's stressful, and it's scary, but trust the process and also trust the people around you because In my experience, they do have your kid's best interest and also the well-being of their success and what their plans and their bigger picture is. So I would just say just have trust and just keep your faith because in the moment and when it's happening, it's really hard and it's really sad. I was telling you I was crying all the time. I was sad all the time. I was like... I really just didn't know what I was going to do. And then to start out with a kid who just wasn't talking and he was completely mute, it's scary. You wonder, is my kid going to drive? Are they going to go to school? And actually, Nick, at this point, he's mainstreaming. So it's amazing. Yeah, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_03: 44:13

Yeah, that's so amazing. And I think one thing that you were really effective at and that benefited you is you always kind of stood your ground and advocated for yourself. You were kind of mama bear Right. So you're like, OK, I'll take these suggestions, but I'm also going to let you know if I don't agree with them. And I think I just want to, again, reiterate that as a non parent. But my suggestion to all parents is make sure at the end of the day, it's your kid and you're advocating for yourself what works for you. So trusting the process, but not, you know. just trusting it blindly, making sure that, like you said, just you did the research, but you're also advocating what works well for you as well. Because you always, you would do that. I remember we had a lot of discussions. If you're like, yeah, I don't think that's going to work. And then we found a way to make it work, rather than you just being like, yeah, you know what, I'll try it, knowing that you couldn't try it.

SPEAKER_05: 44:57

One thing we often talk about is, so we talk about ABA as specific to autism spectrum disorder. And then we can talk about ABA. You alluded to it earlier in terms of behavior in general and sort of parenting skills. Do you think you benefited from services or that your daughter actually also benefited from services despite the fact that she wasn't the direct recipient? Tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00: 45:20

Yeah. I know Elijah is my daughter. She's nine. I know that for her, the whole thing is frustrating because she is typically developing. And I think for her, it's kind of like... well, if you say we're going to do these things, why can't we just do it? For her, getting from point A to point B, like I said earlier, it's a straight line. And for Nick, it's a bunch of zigzags. We're going to get there. It's just going to take some time. So for Elijah, it was really frustrating. And even now, she'll try to help him, and she gets frustrated. So I think to implement those services for other kids in the household is beneficial for everybody because they understand it's harder for this kid But we also, we have to kind of all work together and really just get to the bigger, the goal there.

SPEAKER_03: 46:10

That's tricky because we always say, you know, ASD isn't an individual diagnosis, it's a family diagnosis and it affects everyone. You've talked about how it stressed you out and Elijah as well. Elijah has a lot of personality and I imagine, you know, as being one parent, the primary caregiver, there's only one of you to go around and a lot of times what happens is all the therapists, everybody's there to see Nick and I'm sure that, you know, Elijah did a lot of, say, attention-seeking behaviors and stuff like that where she's like well I want attention I'm over here right I want a lot of the attention and I'm sure that created a lot of frustrations so I don't even know exactly what my question is but that's my thought process and kind of living it vicariously is how would you recommend for families to prioritize or to make sure that they're mindful of everyone else in the situation in addition to the child that has autism

SPEAKER_00: 47:05

Um, I feel like from the beginning, like I made it pretty clear, like I do have these two kids and we need to kind of, I know Nick is the one, as you said with the diagnosis, but implement things for both kids and really let them understand because when Elijah was four or five years old, she just didn't know that somebody was coming over to play with Nick. She felt like, why can't I play or why can't I be a part of this? You know? So just having her understand that and just kind of putting it in like kid terms, I think, um, was helpful also like Elijah and I people might judge but we go on dates you know I'll keep her home I don't know who would

SPEAKER_03: 47:45

judge

SPEAKER_00: 47:45

that I'll keep her home like one day a week from school and we'll go do what she wants so she just had a birthday we went and I don't like sushi but we went to a sushi restaurant she wanted to get her nails done we got her nails done she wanted to go buy an outfit so there's like little things I'll do for her to like let her know like hey It's not all about him and it's not all about you, but we can take our time together and we can spend that time together. And it's just, we call it our girls day and we'll go out. And we have a good time.

SPEAKER_03: 48:14

That's so awesome. That's so important, too, because otherwise that's going to manifest in ways that are going to impact your sanity a lot more. And I know there's been plenty of times where her behavior has been more concerning than Nick's behavior, right? And driving you crazy. It's not the ASD thing. It's just a kid thing.

SPEAKER_05: 48:29

I was going to say just what an amazing parenting advice you're lending there in terms of just striking that balance. And certainly when your child is receiving services, because that can be very overwhelming. There is a great deal of focus. And I think when we get it right is when we realize that there's one person with a diagnosis, but an entire dynamic or family dynamic that has to receive the services. So I imagine that with your services at some point, it was a little bit more inclusive. I know that having been doing this for a long time, at the very start of my ABA career, it was a lot about exclusion. It was a lot about isolation and training these skills.

SPEAKER_03: 49:05

Mom can't be there. Definitely sister can't be there. No,

SPEAKER_05: 49:07

because we didn't want to deal with all the excessive behavior, and that allowed us to deal with that a little bit better, which which I think is very erroneous. We won't get into that now. But I imagine then with Nick's progress, then the services were able to become more inclusive. So suddenly both of your kids and you and the staff are playing in one situation. How did that feel to realize you were at that level? How does it change the scope of services? Yeah, give us your impression on that.

SPEAKER_00: 49:34

It just showed just the steps forward we took because one, it made me feel good that people were like, okay, this is a job here and we're here to do this with Nick, but we can sit down in color with Elijah as well or have her kind of be involved in it. So that was the one thing I always appreciated about it is just kind of letting everybody know and it was just kind of okay from the beginning, which I felt was good. Two, I feel like... if it would have just been a one-on-one with Nick and then kind of getting out of services and then he's with Elijah. For me, I feel like that would have been... it would have felt different just because Nick was receiving this, like, really structured kind of play and services, and then Elijah's coming in, and she didn't need it, but I just, I don't know. It just was like a, it feels like it would have been different. I don't know. You're trying to articulate that better, but...

SPEAKER_05: 50:29

That's tough. That's confusing.

SPEAKER_00: 50:32

But overall, I mean, I think Nick had, it was all a really good experience, so, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 50:41

You mentioned that you prioritized Elijah at times where you didn't have to be with Nick, whether he was at school or something. You went on your dates or your hangouts or stuff like that. One thing that I was a big proponent of, and I was kind of on you about the best that I could be, because if anybody has a lot on their plate, you talk about a single caregiver with two kids who also works and provides and has to take their kid to ABA therapy. Again, I joke, but... Remember, you're talking about getting, what, three hours of sleep a night. You would come into parent group like, I was lucky to get three hours of sleep a night. But one thing I was always on, to the best that I could be, was like, take care of yourself. Prioritize, whether it's getting respite, some sort of babysitter, something like that. Remember, finally, you were able to take a trip to Temecula, which you were like, oh, my god, that was amazing. I don't know if you found ways to do that better. As you've continued to either change your work schedule or things like that. But a lot of parents, you know, they'll put themselves aside for their kids, which makes a whole lot of sense. But at the end of the day, if you don't have any sanity left, like you can't give any to the kids. So can you speak to that at all about the importance of taking care of yourself? I guess in the beginning of I know it's super difficult for you. So. I don't even know how you were able to find any time for yourself. And I haven't talked to you in a while, so maybe you still don't. I don't know. Hopefully you do. And how you were able to find some time for yourself, hopefully, or go about that.

SPEAKER_00: 52:06

So I will say that's 1,000% correct, because you will put your kids first, and you'll go out looking like hell, but you're like, my kids are cool. They're set. Dare we

SPEAKER_03: 52:17

say you'll go out wearing pajama pants?

SPEAKER_00: 52:20

I still wouldn't do it, but I will say... Just acknowledging that and then taking the steps to really, really take, you know, even an hour for yourself is so important because when I started to go and do things on my own, I was like, I really needed that. Like, I just needed to have that. So my good friend Ty and I, her and I will go and do, like, a happy hour and we try to go, like, at least twice a month. And... It's good. My work schedule has changed. I am not on nights anymore as of January of this year. Good for you. So, yeah, it's good. I have learned to take time for myself.

SPEAKER_03: 52:58

Do you feel like... So we talked about the parent groups. Can you speak to that at all? You brought that up in terms of stress relief and things like that. How do you think that that played into... your service delivery in terms of, you know, Nick got his therapy, both individual and in his groups. How integral or not integral do you think that the parent groups were into your ability to implement the services?

SPEAKER_00: 53:25

I will say hands down the parents group on top of receiving the services was amazing. And I still like think back to that and I'm like, it was just so impactful to be sitting in the same room with people who are like, I have either dealt with that or I know I'm going to deal with that. So let's talk about it now and kind of navigate through and see like, okay, maybe our kids are around the same age. How did you navigate through these issues? Or what will I do when maybe my kid is going through it or I've already been through it and this is what I have done?

SPEAKER_03: 53:59

So with the parent groups piece too, as we've talked about, your kids are kind of going to do what they're going to do. But a lot of times it's like how we respond to it and how much it takes out of us in that situation. And I do feel like, and again, I'll just revisit it, but you did talk on it earlier about how one week one parent would be stressed and the next week the other parent would be stressed. And maybe hearing it from another parent of like, yeah, man, like last week my kid wasn't doing this. I thought my kid went to the bathroom and all this sudden they regressed or my kid hit his sister or brother or something like that um was there any did did that part help so not even in terms of your kids behavior but helping you be able to kind of reflect on your perspective of their behavior if that makes sense

SPEAKER_00: 54:43

Yeah, and I think one of the hot topics then, too, was the whole potty training. Yes, it was. We all had a boy. We all had boys. And I think that was kind of a consistent topic because it took them a long time, you know, for all of us to potty train our boys. And we're going through

SPEAKER_03: 55:01

it at the same time,

SPEAKER_00: 55:02

too. Yeah. So I think kind of having that and I think it's just the understanding and then everybody being able to even offer just– their own experience of everything, how they navigate through, and then even providing each other with resources I thought was so beneficial as well, and what really works for those families and how they kind of overcome things. Okay, go to a different

SPEAKER_05: 55:31

one. Folks, I'm not sure if you heard that here, but we're still live and, again, have two children in the studio. We're doing well. They're managing however they can. Are we good? We're good to keep going? To keep rolling? Okay. And, again, we're glad to converse as long as people are comfortable or have time sort of in trying to guide us toward a certain wrap-up and not asking the most final question here. But given your experience in general and thinking about everything you've been through and where you are now, And more importantly, understanding how daunting and scary this might have been at the beginning. If you were talking to a mom that just left the pediatrician's office and was just told about the MCHAT and all the follow-ups she's going to have to do, what would be your best advice? What would you say?

SPEAKER_00: 56:19

My best advice would be just take a deep breath. Having an understanding that, yes, this is very scary, but also getting the right resources and getting involved with people who have an understanding and people who have kind of taken this course already and have kind of seen that light of things. you know the behaviors and things will change and it does get worse with the behaviors but overall and especially I feel really fortunate that I saw the signs early enough and kind of had that whole conversation at first because The early intervention, I feel, really saved my son and his development and how he learns now. I would also say there is no better advocate than you as the parent. So always speak up for your kids. If people don't like you because you don't have the same opinion, it doesn't matter. You're doing it for your kid. And just always, you know, drive in with, you know... What is the goal and what are we trying to accomplish here and how are we going to do it? And always, you know, if you've reached that goal, set a new goal and just always keep going with it.

SPEAKER_03: 57:32

That's an important, I think I could even say growth that I saw in the groups that we had that lasted probably a couple of years. that not caring what other people thought, because in the beginning, it's that judgment of, do other people care? Am I responding right? Like, if I do this out in public, then at the end, it was like, no, I'm going to do what I think is best as the parent, and at the end of the day, I'm the one that has to answer to it. I don't have to answer to any random stranger or anybody who's judging me.

SPEAKER_00: 57:55

And actually, I would say that I would feel really embarrassed, or I would feel like, oh, this person's looking at me, and they're judging me as a parent, but you don't understand the diagnosis that my kid has, and that we've kind of been going through this. So for me, initially, I was like I don't like to go out because people will pass I know they're going to pass judgment because I know my kid is going to act up but now it's like okay we're going to we're just going to take a time out in Target and if it takes us 10 minutes I don't care you can look at me you can give me a dirty look at this point it's no sweat off my back I honestly don't care that much so yeah we've made progress

SPEAKER_03: 58:31

absolutely I do have one other question that I wanted to kind of revisit again something that we talked about a while ago but I believe Nick came to our social groups before he went to any school right so it was the first time you dropped him off can you talk about because I believe that was one of the gradual separations that we actually trialed with your son and a couple of other clients because historically right it would be like drop your kid off and then run out the door and we'll shut the door and then the kid will scream and then So can you talk about kind of that experience about basically dropping your kid off for the first time and what that was like?

SPEAKER_00: 59:06

I will say knowing he had the diagnosis and we did treat it like school, kind of knowing like, okay, he might have days where he doesn't want to be here or he wants to come back with me. It was nice to know that the staff were so understanding of that because I know like, you know, I would come up and then kind of say bye to him and leave. And it was a transition for him. The only person he ever hung out with was me and Elijah. So I feel like it was a transition but... I feel like it was a good transition. It was fun for him. He didn't go to school at first and then get kicked out because of his bad behavior. It was a fun experience for him. So I think the transition to go into real school made it easier for him.

SPEAKER_05: 59:47

All right. So we've covered a lot of ground today. Jess, we want to thank you for your time. I think we're pushing the envelope here. So they've been very well behaved. But it might be time for the adults to wise up and realize it's time to wrap up and wind it down. But to end, we have added two very special guests here to our crew that are now sitting and attentive. No? No? Wait. Not him. Not him? Remember, you want to hold the microphone right to your mouth, right? So Nick can say something if he wants. Elijah, you can say something if you want. So I'll ask you a question, which is tell us a little bit about what you remember when your brother was really little and then all the skills he's picked up up until now. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:31

I think... He kind of grew halfway.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:36

He kind of grew halfway? Yeah. Well, halfway is better than nothing, right? Yeah. Okay, good.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:41

Can he do anything now that he didn't used to be able to do? Oh,

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:45

yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:45

Yeah?

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:46

He's a rough player now.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:47

He's a rough player now? Giving you a run for your money.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:51

He used to be a little softy.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:53

Yeah. We call that self-advocacy then, right?

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:56

Awareness. And... He's kind of the opposite of me because he's a cheap person and I'm the expensive person here.

SPEAKER_05: 1:01:05

Your mom's okay with that? Yes. And he smiled when you said that. Yeah. So sure, Nick. Nick, do you want to tell us something? You want to take the microphone and tell us something? What do you want to say? You want to say hi? Hi. Oh, okay, you don't want to say that. You made a nice sound, though. That's okay. That's all right. Yeah, well, Mr. Dan, thank you, Elijah, for your insights. Again, thank you, Jess and Nick, for your time.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:30

Wait, wait, can I add one more thing? Yes, you can add one more thing. So when he was little, he used to be a crybaby. A

SPEAKER_05: 1:01:37

crybaby, and now?

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:38

And now? Did he learn other ways instead of crying?

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_05: 1:01:42

Okay. Telling you how he feels?

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:44

Yeah, and he used to be a softie, but now...

SPEAKER_05: 1:01:48

Softie means physical and when he tells you, Elijah, stop doing that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:52

I would just still continue. Like, no, because, like, for example, if I'm chewing gum and he tells me to stop chewing gum in my room, I'm not going to stop because it's my room, basically. He doesn't own

SPEAKER_05: 1:02:03

my room. It sounds like you two are communicating just fine.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:08

Yeah. All

SPEAKER_05: 1:02:09

right. Well, it's been a very invigorating experience. You got more. You got more. Keep going. One more thing. One more thing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:14

And sometimes we kind of get along, but most of the time we fight during the day.

SPEAKER_05: 1:02:19

Well, that sounds very regular. That sounds very regular. That sounds about

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:22

right. Sometimes we have to be separated because my mom can't handle it. Sometimes we drive her crazy.

SPEAKER_05: 1:02:28

She seems to be doing okay. All right. She does better than I would. Thank you,

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:33

Elijah. Later, can I say something else?

SPEAKER_05: 1:02:37

We're done for now, but we'll play later. Thank you, Elijah. Well, anything else to wrap up, Mr. Dan?

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:42

No, no. I think that's a great... Jess, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to have your perspective. Maybe we can have you on again. But yeah, just hearing it from a parent, I'm sure so many parents will glean a lot from it. So thank you so much for your perspective, Jess. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_05: 1:02:57

All right. You can say one more thing, Elijah, but you have to repeat after me, okay? It's our closing line. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:02

Okay, sounds good.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:03

What we say is always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:07

Always analyze

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:09

responsibly. Cheers. ABA on Tap is recorded live and unfiltered. We're done for today. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. See you next time.