Motivation, Movement, and Mindset: With Dr. Mallory Quinn, Part II

ABA on Tap is proud to brew with Dr. Mallory Quinn (Part 2 of 2):

In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Mallory Quinn, a Ph.D., BCBA-D, and entrepreneur who is revolutionizing the intersection of Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA), health, and fitness. Dr. Quinn, the owner of ABA Sports Innovations and ABASI Dance Lab, shares her personal journey, applying behavior science to create a fulfilling career outside of traditional clinical paths.

Join us as we dive into:

• The Science of Movement: Discover how ABA principles can be applied to improve performance and overall well-being, whether you're a competitive dancer or a busy professional.
• Combatting Burnout: Learn the strategies Dr. Quinn uses to help other BCBAs and high-achievers protect their energy and set healthy boundaries.
• A Non-Coercive Approach to Health: Explore how Dr. Quinn's positive, data-driven methods move beyond old, coercive training practices to promote safe and effective long-term results.
• Building a Meaningful Career: Get inspired by Dr. Quinn's entrepreneurial path and how she helps others find their niche in the field of behavior analysis.

Whether you are a behavior analyst seeking to diversify your career or simply looking for a new perspective on health and wellness, this episode offers practical tools and inspiration for redefining your relationship with movement.

MORE ABOUT DR. QUINN:

Dr. Mallory Quinn, Ph.D., BCBA-D, is a recognized expert in the field of Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA), specializing in its application to health, sports, and fitness. As an entrepreneur, she has established two successful companies: 
ABASI Dance Lab and 
ABA Sports Innovations. Her work is dedicated to applying behavior science to improve performance, health, and wellness in a non-coercive, positive manner.

Dr. Quinn earned her Ph.D. in Applied Behavior Analysis from the University of South Florida. Her published research focuses on using behavioral methods, data, and feedback to enhance performance, particularly in competitive dance. Through her work at ABASI Dance Lab, she provides professional training for dancers and musical theater performers, prioritizing positive mental health and non-coercive coaching. 

Through ABA Sports Innovations, she offers consultation services and guides other Board Certified Behavior Analysts (BCBAs) who want to enter the health, sports, and fitness field. This includes providing supervision, training, and mentorship workshops. As a business coach, she helps other BCBAs build meaningful careers outside of traditional clinical settings.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:10

Welcome to ABA on Tac, where our goal is to find the best recipe to brew the smoothest, coldest, and best tasting ABA around. I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio, and join us on our journey as we look back into the ingredients to form the best concoction of ABA on tack. In this podcast, we will talk about the history of the ABA brew, how much to consume to achieve the optimum buzz while not getting too drunk, and the recommended pairings to bring to the table. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_05 0:52

All right, all right. Welcome back to ABA on tap. I am your grateful co-host, Mike Rubio, and this is part two of our interview with Mallory Quinn. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

It's interesting. I submitted it, and I remember, you know, reviewer two, you always have reviewer two who's like their reviewer too, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

So don't be reviewer too.

SPEAKER_05 1:27

That's good for a shirt. Don't be reviewer too. I like that. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

I love it. But I remember they um, and Dr. Miltenberger laughed about this at the time too. They said something about how my language was very colloquial. They were like, this, yeah, they were like, this is so colloquial the way you speak. And uh Miltenberger and I laughed about it forever. But what's so funny is like I have had so many people, and this is not to like toot a horn or anything like that, but so many people who have worked with me have said the way that you explain things like is the first time like I understand them. Like you explain, you talk like a regular person. So that's just like an example right there of like reviewer two was like, you're speaking too colloquially. I don't know if that's a word, but then I had I have people now, again, my authenticity, people love working with me because I speak that way. And I feel like I reach more clients because I speak that way. And it's been almost like a hallmark of the type of behavior analyst I am.

SPEAKER_05 2:32

So will you speak a little bit at a how you address that reviewer? Because that that's somebody that can be a thorn in your side and um you know really compel you to start editing things, and then all of a sudden your writing isn't yours. And we we see a similar thing with uh the way we write goals and being a little too innovative. And this past week we had we we paid our the price for being a little too innovative and not uh writing goals in the way that other people might. Um, how do you how did you handle that, reviewer? What did you end up doing? I it sounds like you end up prevailing and keeping your language, but I mean that that had to be quite a back and forth. Okay, a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Yeah, we we edited the article, but it was still, I think it was still um in my language because multiple people after the article was published reached out and said they liked that it was written that way. Again, this was like, you know, the times before Chat GPT. So our writing was like actually our writing.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

Plus, ABAI is probably gonna be consumed with some more scientific or more people in the field. A parent's probably not gonna pick up the journals that you wrote. So I guess it would make sense.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Yeah, I guess like my point is that a lot of the things that kind of like made me a not ideal grad student or not ideal BCBA have allowed me to flourish in business and in life and like really leaning into those things and being like, this is just who I am. Like this is this is who I am. And I spent so many like years of my life trying to fit myself into this like mold that I wasn't to try to prove that I was actually an intelligent person and like you know, I am smart and I am these things. And it's like that was just such a waste of time. So I I think that like again, back to that authenticity when you do practice authentically and you give yourself permission, again, within reason, right? You don't go crazy or be unprofessional, but when you give yourself permission to be authentic and like connect with people in that way, and it doesn't always have to be so rigid and doesn't, like you guys were saying, like we know these things work, so just use the things in your work. It doesn't have to be like this crazy strict way. And if and if you want to practice that way, that's cool. That's again, my ABA can look a little bit different than your ABA. For sure. That's fine.

SPEAKER_03 4:55

Sounds like you're doing values-based stuff with yourself, right? Like saying that these are the things that I value and this is what's important to me, and just because it's not important to someone else, which actually is interesting because it and in Pro Act we talk about cultural humility and cultural competency, and cultural humility is understanding that your culture isn't necessarily the right way to do things, there's other ways of doing things, and it sounds like that in ABA maybe we haven't done a lot of cultural humility because there are other ways of communicating things to people, and by saying this is the only way you can communicate it in this technological term, which in some ways is almost a violation of technological uh the dimension of ABA is like lacking cultural humility, understanding that people do things very very differently. You also made me think about um when I think there's like an arrogance with with ABA, um, and it comes maybe from the scientific piece. So it's ABA is an art and a science, right? And I think people say it's the science of behavior, but Skinner never said that, right? He said it was the philosophy of the science of behavior, and there's the philosophy, right? So at the end of the day, we can all have a really good understanding as scientifically as we want. And I think it comes from this there's a right and wrong with science, which is true, right? Like there's that concreteness, but that's not ABA. ABA is the philosophy of that. So at the end of the day, we're all taking these concepts, but we're philosophizing on them. We're taking them and we're trying to make the best. There's that art piece that so much gets lost, like you're saying, with these these conferences and things like that. Of yes, we might understand the science so well, but at the end of the day, we still have to implement it, whether it's with dance, whether it's with a child with autism, whether it's with somebody with an addiction issue, like you're not just doing it in a lab. Yeah, philosophy pieces.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

And I wonder if other I don't I can't really speak on other fields, but I wonder if other fields maybe are better at doing that than we are, and that's why our field has the perception that it has.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

Very, very rigid. Um I do you work with um in the dance, do you work primarily proportionally or not really with individuals with autism?

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Yeah, we do. Um, so we have um quite a few kids with autism. Um, we have additional services to integrate them and include them in um classes. If that's not a possibility and they do one-on-ones, or a lot of times they do one-on-ones in addition to classes, we offer that service as well. Um, again, like without giving too much away of my business model, uh, we have different service offerings, things like where we work on gross motor coordination and different ABA targets in sessions. Um, I've written a couple curriculums around this, um, which is in my online school. So if someone does want to learn more about like, I've done some presentations on integrating movement into like DTT sessions and integrating movement into clinical spaces. So we have presentations on that, we have curricula on that. Um, people can access that as well.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

So it's not just kids with autism or whatever people with autism, you work with all sorts of different individuals. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Kids with autism is just a small portion of our business. Um, and to be honest, I the reason that it is a portion of our business is when I started my dance studio, so many uh parents of children with autism who were interested in dance and yoga like reached out because they already knew ABA and they loved ABA, so it was a very easy sell. Like they were already like, ooh, another another integration, and they were excited about it. So I actually didn't even plan on that being a part of my business, but it was just again, the parents were so excited about it that it hasn't become a part and evolved to be a a significant part of the business. I would say probably like 30% of our business or clients there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

So you started with ABA dance without autism. Can you can you speak to that? Because again, we really appreciate that insight. Again, ABA and autism somehow got linked, and it's like now it's hard to separate them. Can you talk about maybe how you market it to people? Because ABA also has a kind of tarnished reputation in a lot of circles as well. Uh that might get people to be like, oh no, I don't want people going to Dr. Matthew. She does ABA, that's that mean stuff people do with autism. So can you maybe talk about ABA and dance, how you marketed it? Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Um, I marketed it a lot through like my connections in the dance world, which I think is another issue with people opening businesses and ABA outside, not an issue, but you're gonna have a really difficult time getting profit and marketing if you are not in that world already. Um, I sorry I keep talking about Dr. Miltenberger. Just, you know, love him. He was my mentor.

SPEAKER_05 9:46

Shout out to Dr. Miltenberger. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Yeah. Something he used to say in graduate school, um, because I always got my research done super quick. Like people would be on these sites, oh, this site gave up on me. This person dropped out, this person did that. And he used to say, he was like, You always get your studies done so fast because you have these connections with people in the community. Like I would work at this one dance studio and then use a different teacher that worked there for something, or I'd do a contract, a performing contract. I danced in a show with this other person, and I'm doing, you know. So I always had these like really good like community connections and he saw that and acknowledged that. And I think like that's a big thing that makes a difference when you're starting a business in an area. Um, I I always preach this to BCBAs that I work with that are starting businesses, is don't feel like something's like above you position-wise. Like if you're trying to start a business and ABA and personal training, you need to go work as a personal trainer. You need to teach group fitness, you need to like get in with those people. And if you're not doing that, you're gonna have an incredibly hard time building something and marketing something. When I first opened my business, I taught every single class on the schedule. I like you, you guys are like, how'd you get ABA clients? I just got people in the door. Like I got dancers in the door. And then I was like, oh, you're struggling with this. I have a service for you. You're, you know, your child's having issues with the teacher saying no in class. And I have a service for that, right? You have to get it's it's funnels like in business. You have to look at funnels and how you're getting them in the door. And that bottom of the funnel, that client that's paying you whatever high ticket hourly amount they're paying you, they came from the funnel where you just brought everybody in. So my answer to that is like you have to have services that bring everybody in, and then you can funnel to the ones that really need specific assistance with something.

SPEAKER_05 11:46

And you may not have had all those funnels identified then. You you brought everybody in, and then you had to actually create some funnels at times.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Yes, that's a really good point. It takes time, it takes a lot of trial and error. Um, again, this is another conversation I have all the time in business coaching is people see my business and they're like, oh, uh, they expect that they're gonna have that business in like a year. And I'm like, this took 10 years, 10 damn years to get to like where I'm at. Like it takes a long time. And these things have to be refined, they have to be adjusted. You see, like, oh, this person, this type of client, I call them avatars, like this client avatar is interested in these kinds of services, and this person you can funnel over here. And yeah, like an example is like we early on, I had a yoga studio and I got like a kids' yoga certification. And um, we also had trampoline cardio classes, and the kids love the trampolines. And I was like, oh, we're gonna make a yoga bounce class, right? So we're gonna have the kids bounce on trampoline and do cardio, and then they're gonna do yoga and mindfulness. I cannot even tell you how many ADHD kids I got in this class, how many kids with autism I got in this class, right? Who were really vibing with the sensory of the bouncing on the trampolines and the the they learned to meditate. I had kids with Down syndrome. I had so many different types of kids come in the door for this class. And then I got tons of kids signed up for services, like just from that class. And there's been other types of classes that I've tried that I'm like, oh, this class is incredible, and nobody signs up for it. So you have to you have to know how to pivot, how to adapt. Um, people ask me too, they're like, where do you think you use ABA the most? And I'm like, honestly, like with my staff, like leading the staff, it's like uh that's where I feel like I use ABA more than anything. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

Well, that's because you're a business owner, like you're you get a little bit moved farther away for sure. But I want to reflect back on my question. So the the dance studios that you had, did you just open up a dance studio and people came in, or did you open up the dance studio as an ABA dance studio?

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Yeah. So again, things are a slow transition. I took over a failing yoga studio. Um, they were failing, they were bleeding money, so I got a really good price. And I basically moved in, got all their stuff, and then um I rebranded, so I had the fitness classes, and then I slowly started doing um group classes and dance at the fitness studio, and I slowly started adding ABA private lessons, and then um a space opened up next door, and my landlord reached out to me about it, and this was like during COVID, and I was like, I'm not signing a lease during COVID. And he was like, Well, what if I give you like six months free and a build-out? And I was like, All right.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Yep. Sold, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

So yeah. So I ended up um that was that was six years ago, and that's when we really branded as like, this is an ABA-based dance studio. We're gonna have a full schedule of group classes and all the things plus the ABA. And then again, back to pivoting, I slowly started uh moving out of the fitness studios. I ended up selling, I actually had another location of the fitness studio. I sold one of them and then the other one, my dance studio just moved in. It just took over. Um, but again, back to the mindset stuff we were talking about. If I was in that very like rigid ABA mindset, I would have just, and this is how I was in the beginning, I would have just kept pushing the fitness studio and pushing the fitness studio of like, oh, I just need to put more money or more time or more whatever because I don't want to be seen as a failure. Because that was my mindset before. And now my mindset is like, no, I learned so much from that business that that's why my business now, the one I really care about and is values aligned, is so successful because I learned everything from that other business. So again, it's all that mindset work.

SPEAKER_05 15:47

What a what a risk. That's that's that's uh incredible. So you you bought a failing location, yeah, and then essentially did the same thing. I mean that I mean that is remarkable. You clearly had a grip on on how to rebrand. I I think that was you know likely huge. But I mean that's that's an exceptional risk you took. Like I, you know, this same service in this location is failing. I'm gonna do the same thing here.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Yeah, we well, we we added a bunch of stuff and we made it more, yeah. But um, I learned a lot of that just from working for small businesses. So again, back to like not stuff you learn in grad school. They don't they don't teach you how and again, no shade. Like they're teaching you to work for places that are funded, universities, insurance companies, those kinds of things, but you don't learn how to build a business or how to um do that day-to-day kind of thing. So um I learned a lot of that from working as a peer bar fitness instructor at peer bars for a long time, or working at I worked as a dance instructor at many different dance studios, and I saw things that I liked and things that I didn't like, and that's how you learn. So bar.

SPEAKER_05 16:54

That's that's perfect for ABS.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

That stuff is hard, man.

SPEAKER_03 16:57

That stuff is really hard. That's a good point. I mean, we've been in the field for so long, and it's yeah, I mean, it uh it makes me uh think about like was it knocked up or what one of the movies where it's like gotta date sixes before you get to the 10. Like, you gotta be in a lot of sixes uh with some companies for to create the 10. Like a lot of the the newer BCBAs think they know, but it's like you don't know we've learned so much of good and bad from all of our all of our experiences, and I mean a lot of them what resonates is like, oh, I'm never gonna do that, which is a very, very valuable learning experience.

SPEAKER_05 17:32

It made me think of a CEU. We might have to partner with Dr. Mallory, but nobody I don't know that I've seen that. Uh a course or a CEU on how to explain a ABA to the common person. I mean Kendall's book is on that, right? Well, she's got the thesaurus. So Kendall Rindack Samuel has a thesaurus of terms, which I guess goes for that. But yeah, I think that you make a really good point. So how do you how do you advertise the ABA or how does that fit into your marketing that then sets you apart from every other dance studio? We've had uh we recently had a guest on who's gone the other way with autism treatment and uh doesn't actually uh advertise the behavior analysis because of the state of the field. Even when she hires uh RBT, she does get them RBT uh certified, but she doesn't hire, she doesn't list that she's hiring for RBT, she calls them like learning specialists or something. I think that's smart. Yeah, once they come in the door, then she's like, hey, I'm gonna teach you the way you're gonna do the learning specialist. I think that's really smart.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

You hire the right person and give them the training.

SPEAKER_05 18:32

Yeah, and that's kind of what you're doing is you're you're finding the person that can do the job, and then you're training them on the ABA as they need after that.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Yeah, and I think my answer to your question, the thought that came up is I try to show it rather than tell it. So I think like in our social media, the things that we post, the things that we share, the the language that we use, the tone that we use, people get the vibe right away that we're different. Um, and again, like they gravitate to us. I really don't post too much about the ABA stuff that I do. Um, I do on my consulting page a little bit more because of again the nature of my marketing there. I'm trying to show other behavior analysts like, hey guys, this is what I do day to day. So I talk about it a lot more there. But um on my dance studio page, yeah, we don't really talk much about ABA. It's really um just about the dancing, about the kids. Um, and then a lot of times people are like, what is ABA or what does ABA SI stand for? And then I explain it to them and they're like, oh, that's really cool. But again, it's like more so like that funnel model of we get people in that are that vibe with us because of the presence that we put out there. Like a specific example is like, you know, last week I made a post of like why we don't compete. And I made a little carousel post on our dance studio page of like these are the reasons that we don't compete. And I went over like a little bit of research and a little bit of like this was my work in grad school. And like most of those people don't even know that about me. Like they're not, they're not even there for that reason, you know.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

What page, uh, when you say page, are you talking LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram?

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Oh yeah. So I have a couple. Um, my personal Instagram, if you guys want to follow me, is Mallory underscore ABA Dance Doctor. And then I have my dance studio Instagram is ABA S I Dance Lab. Okay, and then my consulting company is ABA Sports Innovations. So those are all the different pages.

SPEAKER_05 20:30

And we're gonna have you recap that again in about 20 minutes. So don't lose whatever representation. And we'll put it in the link. And we'll put it in the link just to make sure people can find you.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Yeah, but again, I think like a lot of companies, they're they're so focused on marketing ABA. And like, I just keep seeing these like new companies pop up, and and all the posts are like, this is what ABA is, and like, how do you use ABA with lifting a weight? And how do you use ABA? And it's like, it's too much. Like, people don't even they don't care. Like they just want to see, they just want to see like the change and have a good vibe and see, you know, and you can still practice ABA and do all those things. It's just you know.

SPEAKER_05 21:10

Well, you also did say earlier something about uh DTT and movement, which I think is completely erroneous. You can't you can't have kids move if they're doing DTT, they have to sit, right?

SPEAKER_03 21:20

Oh, that's true in the IKEA chair.

SPEAKER_05 21:21

I know I'm kidding. I'm totally kidding.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

An obstacle course with little stuff.

SPEAKER_05 21:26

Dr. Quinn, Dr. Quinn, no, they have to be a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Anything in the room. The parent can't be in the room.

SPEAKER_05 21:35

Right, the parent can't be in the room. It's got to be an isolated portion of their house. So we we come from that cards. Lamination is very important. Um, we've come from that tradition. We we make a lot of fun of that stuff. Wait, wait, so kids don't have to sit while you're doing discrete trial? You mean the trial itself is the important part? They can move around? Wow. But I you know, we're being facetious, maybe a little too much. Unfortunately, it's we see colleagues out in the field that are still in that mindset. And it's like, no, man, like the trial is the important part. The table and the chair were just one example of how this goes. Yeah, you know, geez.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

So um question. So back in your your origin story, um, I think you said when you went into grad school, you I think I might have quoted you correctly or wrong. You can correct me if I quoted you wrong, but you said I learned how to do more scientific dance.

unknown 22:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

What do you mean by that? Speak to that.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Oh, yeah, that's such a good question. So um for example, dance therapy or art therapy, and I could be saying this wrong because those aren't my fields, but my understanding of it is the act of engaging in the activity itself is the therapy. Um, the difference or how I explain to people of how we do ours in one-to-one session is we integrate dance and we integrate yoga as like tools, right, during the session. So, again, like we just touched upon, like maybe we're working on labeling animals and they do an obstacle course and they pick up the stuffed animal and they label the animal, or maybe um we're teaching them breath work, we're teaching a child breath work through yoga for emotional regulation when they're having a tantrum. But the but just doing yoga with the child isn't the therapy itself. That is used as like a tool or maybe a reinforcing activity during session, those kinds of things. So it just looks a little bit different in that way. Um, but again, this is me being crunchy and loving other things. I love learning about like somatic movement, and I do integrate some like somatic movement things into my session as well. So um maybe I have a dancer who is struggling with present moment awareness, right? She has anxiety, she's always thinking about the past, ruminating about the past, worrying about the future, those kinds of things. Um, maybe I do integrate a little bit of somatic work where we play a song and we move through the emotion and we take pauses and we do breath work and those kinds of things, in addition to those classic ABA strategies or act work that I'm using with her.

SPEAKER_05 24:12

I I love this. You just mentioned emotion and ABA in the same sentence, and those are historically diametrically opposed. Will you will you talk about how you define emotion for your students uh or how you talk about it? That's really interesting because I think it's something that um we miss. We miss a lot of because you know, the idea of memory or emotion anxiety, we've been talking about this, you know, throughout this conversation. Those are really hard things for applied behavior analysts to quantify. And a lot of people get really tripped up on that to the point where you can't have that conversation, but you're having it successfully and with good outcomes based on what you want to do for your students.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

So what is emotional? Yeah, yeah, I'm sure people are gonna be so there's gonna be some people that might be very upset with things that I'm saying. And again, that's that's an emotion, though. That's okay. Yeah, your feelings are valid for some path upset right now.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

Wait, so they're gonna get emotional about you, but you saying that emotions are part of behavior.

SPEAKER_05 25:09

Wait a minute, this is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Your feelings are valid. Um, no, so something, something that I learned a lot outside of graduate school, and again, through like my own kind of woo-woo training in uh 500 hours of the training.

SPEAKER_05 25:23

I was like woo-woo training. Woo-woo training.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

I need some woo-woo training.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

The 500 hours of yoga teacher training I did, and all the all the podcasts I listen to and books I read of like holistic things. Um, the mind affects the body, and the body affects the mind. And there's such a like huge connection there that isn't really talked about in graduate school. Which again, no shade. They only have a certain amount of time, they gotta get you to pass the exam. That's not a that's not a focus, right? No shade to any graduate programs. But um that is a huge thing that is missing in in our education and in our work with clients. And like, for example, when I work with supervisees, the first book that we read in conjunction with ABA textbooks is The Body Keeps the Score. So we read about how body affects mind, how mind affects body, things like breath work. Um a lot of times people are like, well, what's the point of breath work? Like, I'm I'm not gonna sit here and relax when I'm having a tantrum. That statement means that you don't understand breath work because what breath work does is it literally it I can't, I'm not, I'm not a medical doctor, so don't uh misquote me. Go for it.

SPEAKER_03 26:38

Oh, I was waiting for a bad pun there.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Like there's a there's a mechanism when you turn on your parasympathetic nervous system, right? You turn on this nervous system, you activate your vagus nerve, you do all these things. It literally tells your mind to calm down. So even when your mind is spinning or whatever's going on, if you can regulate your body, you can also regulate your mind. And there's this connection there that ABA just completely like ignored standard ABA just completely ignores or overlooks, or even things like food like a child's diet greatly affects their behavior. So like I've had again, people are gonna get angry about this, and that's fine. But I've had clients who like the parents are like, oh my gosh, out of nowhere, like they're depressed, and and we're getting them on antidepressants and all these things. And again, I'm not a nutritionist, but I'll be like, What is your child like eating? Oh, they eat like they eat McDonald's once a day. Does your child get sunlight? No. Does your child go on walks? No. Your child used to be a figure skater and now they're not figure skating anymore. What are they doing after school? Oh, they're going into their dark room and they're on social media. Okay, well, there's tons of research on social media effects on teenage, like all these things, and these all play a role. Like, I can write a behavior intervention plan on like I don't know, random things, but like if you're not looking at all these other things, it's like you're missing a huge piece of the puzzle.

SPEAKER_05 28:15

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so many of these, and you mentioned a couple of them, like optic flow and and sunlight, which I think is is really important. And there's these these simple things that we can engage in. Um I I guess maybe because in ABA we're used to prompting the desired behavior or we have to see it happen. So the idea that I'm just gonna go out in the morning and get 10 minutes of sun on my face and in my eyes, um, we don't necessarily see the effect right afterwards. So I don't know if that leads to some of the skepticism. Um, as far as the diets are concerned, it's so interesting because historically, I think we're we're caught in this denying the empirical validation of you know GFCF diets uh toward some cure of autism. So we're gonna deny that. And we kind of got stuck there to your point. Like all of a sudden, we're not gonna consider food outside of edible reinforcement because, of course, that's not gonna have any you know any effect or collateral effect on your behavior. Of course, it does. In fact, if anything, if I work with young clients and there's eating or sleeping concerns, we're gonna start there. I don't care about anything else.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Your nervous system over time, those things are cumulative over time, so it builds, it builds up and it manifests and it shows up in different ways. And okay, another controversial statement. I think people in our field don't understand the connection because they're not making the connection in their own life. They're not going out in the morning and getting sunlight, they're not eating a certain way, they're not self caring, they're not engaged in their fitness. And that's why they don't see because again, it's it's not it's not even a debate. There's so much research on it. It's not it's not a question, it's scientific, just like our science. Stuff is scientific, but they don't see that because they're not using it in their own lives. Because I didn't see it till I used it in my own life, and they were like, Oh, hey, like your lupus is in remission. We don't know how this happened, but but it is, or like, you know, I didn't change anything about my diet, but I I look completely different because I am getting 10 minutes of sunlight in the morning, or my work productivity is completely different. All these things. So I think that's a huge piece, is like behavior analysts don't see it because they don't practice it, and that's a huge problem in the field. Like, we're teaching kids emotional regulation and we're not emotionally regulating ourselves. So, like, that's weird.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

I think there's also so I think there's a whole lot of validity in what you're saying. I'm gonna give a slightly alternative take that I think that maybe one of the reasons that a lot of people in our field um don't maybe prescribe to that is because a lot of times when it's come out, like I remember when the GFCF die, right? Jenny McCarthy came out with this cures altism, or these things come out and people take it to the far extreme and they're like this cures altism, and now we're thinking, okay, now we're gonna be out of a job as a result of that. And number one, I don't even know what cures autism, I don't know what that statement means, but that's how it's presented. And I think it sometimes people take these things too far absolutely now they're not valid anymore, but there's a there's like there's a middle ground that's so true, like yes, a lot of these things may have a have a huge impact into autism. Um and the G the GI system has I mean, we're learning now how that's like the second brain. Um so that's kind of my thought is that I think what you're saying is true, and I also think that sometimes people have these anecdotal statements. Medication would be another one. Um, you know, parents will say, like, oh my child started taking this um, you know, this um like Vesperidone or something like that, and and now they're talking all the time, and now now they now they can do their math, and it's like, well, Vesperidone I don't think is teaching your child to do math. There might be an effect with that. So I think sometimes it's these over-extreme ideas that then make people on the other side get defensive and then leave us in this like very politicized no-win situation where both are probably true.

SPEAKER_05 32:16

That's my single attributions, but I've got to tell my Apple story. You just mentioned it. So, this idea that you know I've got a client and uh are the target's Apple, we're gonna teach them to identify and say Apple, and we work on it, and we're presenting the flashcards, and we're eating apples at snack, and then the kid starts their ADHD medication the next day they say Apple, and the parent goes, Oh my god, they're what the medication did. And it's like, oh, wait a minute. We've been working on that for like four weeks. You think that that this little pill, they put it in their mouth, and then immediately Apple is what the effect was. Are you sure that was the medical uh the therapeutic effect of this uh stimulant? Because we've been working on Apple for three weeks. I guess it's single attributions that get made to your point. Yeah, both sides of the stuff. Definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Yeah, definitely. And yeah, the extreme is definitely a big issue, but I feel like there's also so much power. And if you are like a highly educated person, like in science or in our field, and then you also can say, like, but I also understand, and and um what word am I looking for? I I understand and I I identify the the value of like these other things as well. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 33:27

Yes, yes. Are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect?

SPEAKER_00 33:31

The who?

SPEAKER_03 33:31

The Dunning Kruger effect. No, so look it up. Basically, it's a it's an effect that shows that when people people start with like no knowledge or information about something, and then when people start to get a little bit of information about something, oh yes, they think they know everything about it, and then actually the more information you get about it, the more you realize you don't know. So you'll see like this parabolic knowledge drop. Oh, that's cool. That's what BCBA is, right? The more you realize like you don't know everything, the more you're in the field, the more knowledge you get, the more you realize, wait, I don't know everything. I don't know anything about dance, I don't know much about diet, I don't know much about sleep, I know about reinforcement. But like let's collaborate. Let's we don't know everything. It's that that Dunning Kruger effect. So I think the more people that are longer in the field, I know we've learned so much from the podcast, and parents, the people we're supposed to be giving the treatment to, we learned so much about. Like, I I totally agree with what you're saying about that collaborative piece, it's so important.

SPEAKER_05 34:27

They're gonna rename that to the TikTok effect, I think. That's where you learn, that's where everybody knows and learns everything though, right? TikTok.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

We were just talking about that yesterday with the teenage dancers. We have such a problem with them like thinking they know everything or being like, oh, we don't need we don't need to learn any more from you. And we're like, it's the TikTok. Like they see things on TikTok and they're like, I don't need my teacher.

SPEAKER_05 34:49

Man, never have we had more access to information and and and utilized it so poorly. Like never in the history of mankind have we had so much access to information yet.

SPEAKER_03 34:59

Well, without being political, like COVID showed that you have an abundance of information, but you don't know what's you get like two with it, diametrically opposed stories about the same, whether it's vaccine or whatever, and now you're introducing AI, so you don't even know it's true anymore.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Yeah, everyone has their lens that they um receive the information through.

SPEAKER_03 35:21

Your dissertation. Uh you talked about manipulating antecedents and consequences within dance. I think that I think you just gave kind of like a quick one as you told your story, but can you speak more to your dissertation and kind of what it was, what you learned from it? I'm sure there's a lot of interesting stuff from that.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Sure. Sorry, I've just like compartmentalized that to the back of my mind. Oh, we don't have to talk about it if you don't want to no, no, no, no, it's cool. Um, so during the time that I was in graduate school, I did research on a couple of different procedures within dance. So kind of under this umbrella of like behavioral coaching, right? Um, so things like tag teach or acoustical feedback. We did peer acoustical feedback, we did video modeling and video feedback, and we also did um public posting and graphical feedback as like a motivational um strategy as well. So for my dissertation, I put all of those into a manual called the Point Program, which stands for or stood for positive interventions to enhance the performance of dancers, which we ended up rebranding the manual to be athletes and include all kinds of different sports in there. Um but I think what the most compelling part of the manual was for dance teachers, and they reported this as well, wasn't really the learning of those four specific interventions. It was really the learning how to task analyze a dance movement and break it up into um these many different observable components and collect data on those components. And that's something that a dance studio can use really in anything that they're doing, whether they're using ABA or not, they can learn to collect data on their dancers' performances, which is really cool. Um, so yeah, so for the dissertation, we tried to see if, or we looked at if dance instructors could learn to use these strategies from just a manual versus the behavior analysts coming in and pulling a student out of class and doing it with them kind of thing. Um, and we found that they were able to, um, but it did require a lot of in-person coaching and training and you know, just having a manual and some videos was not sufficient. Um, it required a lot more than that. Uh, one of my supervisees, she um, who I work with now, she actually did an extension of that study where she made like a software and did um more of a virtual training, and she had great results with that as well.

SPEAKER_05 37:44

Yeah, we uh ladders, right? Those who do we have uh recently was talking about that. Uh free attorney. Yep. Well, uh I'm forgetting right now, but yeah, the we we've had somebody similar who's doing that with early intervention and uh parental involvement. So parent-driven ABA using an app, same kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

And yes, there's a coaching session once a week or whatever, but really the parents doing everything and following that app, which we think is I think that's beautiful for dissemination, and it might not work for everybody, but um, I think it's a nice option for people to have that makes it more accessible.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

Yeah. So not to date you, um, but that dissertation was how long ago? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

If you don't mind me asking, um, I graduated with my PhD in 2017. So almost a decade ago. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:30

Not too long.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

We don't count the COVID years, but uh, like like I said, I got started really early in the field. So I was a behavior therapist when I was 18 years old. So again, that was kind of lucky. I was a BC ABA when I was 21. So I I I found what I wanted to do early and and ran with it and just kind of evolved from there.

SPEAKER_05 38:50

So you did the in-home thing then. You've you you've got the experience.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yes. You want to talk about that a little bit?

SPEAKER_05 38:55

Talk about that a little bit. Like, yeah, how did that what do you remember? How did that transfer over to what you're doing now? Hearing criticisms of the field now that largely stem from the medical model and in-home services. Where do you go? Oh yeah, they're still doing that, they're getting it wrong. Or yeah, how do you how does it resonate with you currently?

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Yeah, so um, yeah, I I started, I was doing, I never did DTT in a clinic, I will say that. I never did like any sort of table time, I don't know if they still call it that, but AVA therapy. I don't know. Um never in my life, never in my life. I've never used the BB map, I've never used Abel's. I've learned about it. I I learned enough to pass the exam. I've taken CEUs on it. I understand, like, I understand it, um, but I've never used it before. So I worked uh when I first started in the field, I did mostly like on-site, kind of know what you would call it, but like work with clients at yeah, like ADTs. Um, they were at like adult day training centers, um, group homes, those kinds of things. I worked a lot with adults. And then um I also worked in foster care for a brief period of time, and it was so rough. Yeah, I worked in it for I don't even think I made it a year. It was it was really rough.

SPEAKER_05 40:13

Man, that's heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Um yeah, and I actually like again back to like my kind of health issues. I I picked up some stuff when I was working in like bad areas, like I yeah. So um I just it wasn't really for me. Um, but I did have that experience working in foster care and then working with adults. Um, I worked with adults for probably like five years, so quite a bit. Um, but never did DTT ever.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

So um you you something that you're really passionate about. Uh are you are you there? Oh, perfect. Good. You're you're good.

SPEAKER_05 40:50

You're you were frozen uh visually for a second, but you could hear us. That's good.

SPEAKER_03 40:54

Something really passionate you brought up a couple of times is the the burnout with B C BAs. It seems like that's something you're you're really or women in the field of ABA, I guess not even just B C BAs. Um can you speak to that and also some like specifics of of things that maybe resonate with you or some things that you found that you're very passionate about when it comes to reducing burnout, particularly with women in the business women?

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Oh, sorry, I'm just reconnecting. Sorry. Okay, you cut out when you said um brought up the burnout with BCBAs. That's where it cut off.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

I think I think we're good now. Can you hear me okay now?

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Yeah, yeah, perfect.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

I was saying it just seems like that's something you're really passionate about is uh burnout with uh women business owners, BCBAs, um what have you. So can you speak to some of the things that really resonate with you? Maybe some strategies that you found to to be effective that you really vibe with? Um again, it just seems like something you're really passionate about. So the floor is yours to talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Um so yeah, I actually have a model that I use in my business coaching um where um we work through different areas of things that we've talked about, such as boundaries, regulation, um, these kinds of uh it's stand the acronym is Brave, um, but values, embodiment, all just all these different areas that we work through. But I think a really big thing with women is just like people pleasing. And um I watch male business owners a lot in the way that they run their businesses and I learn a lot from them. And like, for example, I just just a little example. I made a post last week about um like women always use like emojis in their communications. They always use like smiley faces and like emojis and explanation points. And back to Millenberger, he used to joke about that with me too. And like we're we're kind of conditioned. I feel like that comes from like it's like these little things that we do that we don't even realize like come from our conditioning. So like we're conditioned to uh say things with like an emoji or an explanation point almost as like a please like me still kind of thing when we're giving feedback. And something that I was talking about in my post is like that actually takes away your authority, and um, you know, there's research on that. It and and men don't really speak that way, right? Like if a man sends an email or feedback, there's not a smiley face or an emoji, there's not like an lol when an invoice is attached or whatever. So things of that nature. Um, just little thing, little things that we do in our verbal behavior. Like we love to add just to things, um, saying like I just whatever, or I just, and that can kind of negate the statement that you're saying, and rather than just saying the statement. So uh that's a lot of ABA there too, is just see, I just did it there and I just did it again. Learning about, you know, even ways that we can shape our verbal behavior or like noticing conditioning that we've had that might make us communicate a certain way, where we can be perceived as less authoritarian or less um maybe a little bit less respect or whatever.

SPEAKER_05 44:13

Even confidence, maybe in terms of like you're saying. Like me, like me, as opposed to hey, this is what I'm about, and take it or leave it. Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Yeah, right. And it took so many years, it's something I'm still working on, but it took so many years for me to really be okay with just giving feedback. Did it again. I added just again. Giving feedback and without all of those superfluous like words attached to it.

SPEAKER_05 44:37

So uh my my uh my trick has been the word simply, which is now overused, but just and still, simply is is my go-to now. It's it's not just or still, which is good, but now I'm overusing simply. So if you want to take that, go for it. Simply, simply simply, I simply do this.

SPEAKER_03 44:55

That comes across very uh dismissive from the other side because it's like no, you're making it simple for us. Thank you. Thanks. I I appreciate that. It's obvious. Not all of us went to Stanford, my bad.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Oh jeez, here you go. But yeah, there's so many little things that show up. Um, I think I learned a lot too from owning a that gym for women. It was frustrating because it women would come in and they'd be like, Oh, I'm getting I'm getting fit for my wedding, and they'd be taking care of themselves and doing all the things, and then you'd like never see them again after like three months. And I talked to like a lot of people that own women gyms, and they're like, Yeah, that's just like how women are. And I was like, this is so frustrating because men aren't that way, like they just take care of themselves, like they they go do the thing, and it's not or don't. Oh, or don't, but yeah, and then we own it. Yeah, like I'm taking care of myself for three months so I look good in a picture, kind of thing. So, just again, like all this conditioning and the way that we're taught to show up and we have to look a certain way. And I this could be a three-hour podcast. I have so many opinions on it, but even things like like my dad is my accountant personally and for my business, and sometimes he's like the amount of money he sees me spend on things like my hair and nails and things like that. And I say to him, I'm like, listen, there is actual research that if women don't get their hair and nails done and wear makeup to work, they are not taken as seriously and people don't spend as much money with them. And there's real research on that, so so much. So even things like that, like it's just wild.

SPEAKER_03 46:28

Yeah, so it sounds like you're you're struggling with resonating with their values because their value was looking good for a wedding picture and your value was more holistic long term. Yes, yes, Dan. Yes. See, now we gotta get back to the value stuff. No, we gotta use AC.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

I'm saying that it's sad that this is how we're conditioned from society. It's sad that we are made to feel guilty that we can't spend money on our fitness long term or show up to the classes every day long term. That that that that's that's uh savored for a special event.

SPEAKER_05 47:03

I just back to product versus process, one shot versus a lifestyle that's healthy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:08

It's also interesting. I mean, and uh this is absolutely extrapolating to greater populations, but at least in my anecdotal experience from my girlfriend and just people in my life that it you talk about um women and working out. A lot of times they seem to, and my girlfriend's the same way, like she can't really she doesn't like to work out solo at the gym, but like if she can go to a class or something, she would do the boot camps. Like those would resonate with her. Where I don't see guys doing as much of like the boot camp stuff, they can tend to work out more solo in a gym. I don't know if that's yeah, something that you've seen in the game.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Probably because women love community and like, yeah, that's just I think back to our conditioning.

SPEAKER_03 47:46

Like, we love to be around other women, which is all and it's cool though that you're bringing all of this stuff, you know, being being honest with your emotions, and you tell you call it the woo-woo stuff, and it's things like that that you wouldn't necessarily see as a traditional business owner. But I think somebody you talked about your tattoos and things like that, like opening people's minds to what is possible out there, and like you said, you don't have to fit into the traditional mantra of whatever it is, you can be yourself and still be successful.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:18

So Woo-woo ABA is gonna be the title of this episode. I believe Woo Woo ABA with Dr. Mallory Quinn. Is that the go for it?

SPEAKER_00 48:25

I love it.

SPEAKER_05 48:26

No, no, we we really appreciate that you've expanded. Uh, and that you know, again, we we're really enjoying that, and meeting people that are outside of autism treatment is really bringing ABA to life. Like this isn't just about the treatment of this one specific condition. This is something that you can do for yourself every day. Uh, it's it should be very accessible, and for whatever reason, and and we're you know, we're guilty of it too. We've we've made it a little bit uh unattainable or out of reach sometimes. And I we really appreciate that you're bringing it to the masses in that sense. Um, something that you made me think about earlier that I think is very relevant to what everybody does with ABA if they're working with clients. How do you determine levels? So the idea that somebody comes into your studio, maybe it's an autistic uh child, uh, the notion that you're gonna decide are they ready for a group lesson versus I need to work with them individually first. Give us a little bit of insight on how that plays out.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Um we have a bit of a screening process. So we ask about like what their dance experience has been in the past. Um, we do an assessment if necessary, but a lot of times from that screening, we can recommend certain classes for them to trial. And then based on the trial, um we inform them from there. Uh but yeah, for all of our levels, we have um a very detailed, intricate checklist of like what and sometimes it's a range, right? Sometimes it's like a range of a skill, but they have to be like within a certain area of all those skills to move up levels. Um and we set the expectation that they might be in the same level class for many years, things of that nature. Everyone's progress is different, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 50:04

Cool, cool. Can you can you speak? So uh we just want to open up the floor for you to talk about your companies. You also brought up your Instagram pages, just where people can find you. Talk about is it it's ABA S I. Is that yes, yeah. Can you talk about where people can find you?

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Yeah. The dance studio is ABA S I Dance Lab. Um, we have a website, we have an Instagram. Like I said, I don't post too much ABA stuff on there, but we practice a lot at the studio. And then um, my consulting company, where there is a lot more ABA stuff posted, is ABA Sports Innovations. Um, we've been around since 2016. And then my personal Instagram is Mallory, M-A-L-L-O-R-Y underscore ABA Dance Doctor. And then we have an online school for behavior analysts for RBTs who are looking to get information. Uh, we have CEUs on there, we have curriculums, we have guided meditations you can use with your clients if you're looking for something a little more woo-woo, all kinds of different things on there.

SPEAKER_03 51:17

Um I bet you if you made a company called Woo-woo ABA, I bet you it would get a lot of eyes. Woo wooaba. We will have to get permission from Dr. Quinn.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:25

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

Um, but that website is learn.abasportsinovations.com. And then my website, if you're looking for information on business coaching and supervision, is abasportsinnovations.com. So I do work again with women, BCBA is looking to open businesses outside of autism. So we I've we primarily focus in health, sports, and fitness, but we have a gamut. Like one person I'm working with now, she's a BCBA who does psychedelic integration coaching. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

You you peaked as a go ahead. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:03

Sorry, what yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

So um I I'm gonna have to look into that. Yeah, outside of the box, um, different women looking to break out of the mold. And then yeah, I also supervise students. So I have a a student rate if you're in school and you're looking for supervision that's outside of the box um to learn some of these different things. You can always reach out to me for that.

SPEAKER_03 52:28

How do you uh how do you get 30 hours into a day? Because you do like eight different things.

SPEAKER_05 52:34

My question was when do you sleep? Yeah. I need to learn this. When do you get sleep time in? And then you get the optic flow in in the morning. So you we know you're sleeping at some point, but we're not sure when you're gonna say spinning that in.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

You should know enough about me by now to know I follow the sun. Like, okay. Um no, I think that when you're not burned out, you can do a lot more.

SPEAKER_05 53:00

Well, and I would I would add the only thing I would add to that is that that you're not burned out because you're doing things the way you want to do them, and there's a certain confidence and motivation that comes from that. And I think we're experiencing that uh currently and and working a ton and then just being like, I I actually find like I've I feel like I have extra time on my hands. What else can I do? And so much of that comes from following following your passion, following your own lead, you know. And I so thank you for for sharing your story. I think it's uh it's chock full of that inspiration and saying, do things your own way, don't be afraid to break the mold, you know. Go uh uh chart new terror, yeah, chart new new paths. Uh be authentic. Um, Dr. Mallory Quinn, we've covered a lot of ground. Anything that we didn't cover, you've given us uh everywhere people can find you. I hope to go out and find you. We have at least you just mentioned the uh the women's leadership stuff. We have at least three former guests or three guests on the tap that we're gonna want to connect you with that I think. Yeah, uh that you do very well with. But we'd like to do a quick synopsis here. Um uh what are we gonna say, Dan? We're gonna say accept, commit. Be authentic, be authentic, dance, and always analyze responsibly. Thank you so much, Dr. Mallory Quinn. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Thank you. Thank you, guys. Always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_04 54:18

ABA on chat is recorded live and unfiltered. We're done for today. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. See you next time.